Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • Orovnichanec
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 410

    #31
    Wikipedia not credible.....Plus this "questions" are in the wrong Thread and section to ask.
    "Oh, Macedonians! It is time we realized that the greatest demon Macedonia must battle against is none other than Bulgaria" - Krste Petkov Misirkov

    Comment

    • Truth Bearer
      Banned
      • Sep 2008
      • 120

      #32
      I mean as one of the founding fathers of a seperate identity why does he call you Macedonian Slavs??All the books he'
      s written refer to Macedonian Slavs is this correct or is wiki wrong?

      Comment

      • Truth Bearer
        Banned
        • Sep 2008
        • 120

        #33
        Well not really as Daskalot posted the man's name so I checked it out and came up with the facts.I'm seeking answers please enlighten me if you can sir?

        Comment

        • Orovnichanec
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 410

          #34
          Originally posted by Truth Bearer View Post
          I mean as one of the founding fathers of a seperate identity why does he call you Macedonian Slavs??All the books he's written refer to Macedonian Slavs is this correct or is wiki wrong?
          He wrote that as a linguistic group, not as a ethnic group.


          Founding fathers of a seperate identity? Is this the same like the Bavarian King Otto for the "Greeks"....?

          I would wait for Daskalot to answer the questions..... He knows alot more then me on these subjects.
          "Oh, Macedonians! It is time we realized that the greatest demon Macedonia must battle against is none other than Bulgaria" - Krste Petkov Misirkov

          Comment

          • Truth Bearer
            Banned
            • Sep 2008
            • 120

            #35
            No but Pulevski was probably one of the first that promoted a seperate identity...

            Gjorgjija Pulevski (Bulgarian: Георги Пулевски; Macedonian: Ѓорѓи Пулевски, 1838 – 1895) was a writer and revolutionary from Macedonia, known today as the first author to publicly express the idea of a separate Slavic Macedonian nation distinct from Serbs and Bulgarians, as well as a separate Macedonian language.

            Pulevski was born in 1838 in Galičnik (today Republic of Macedonia, then under the rule of the Ottoman Empire) and died in 1895 in Sofia, the capital of what was then the newly independent Principality of Bulgaria. Trained as a stonemason, he became a self-taught writer in matters relating to Macedonian language and culture.

            That tells me nation not language Misirkov do you see what I mean?

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15660

              #36
              Originally posted by Truth Bearer View Post
              No but Pulevski was probably one of the first that promoted a seperate identity...

              Gjorgjija Pulevski (Bulgarian: Георги Пулевски; Macedonian: Ѓорѓи Пулевски, 1838 1895) was a writer and revolutionary from Macedonia, known today as the first author to publicly express the idea of a separate Slavic Macedonian nation distinct from Serbs and Bulgarians, as well as a separate Macedonian language.

              Pulevski was born in 1838 in Galičnik (today Republic of Macedonia, then under the rule of the Ottoman Empire) and died in 1895 in Sofia, the capital of what was then the newly independent Principality of Bulgaria. Trained as a stonemason, he became a self-taught writer in matters relating to Macedonian language and culture.

              That tells me nation not language Misirkov do you see what I mean?
              Stay focused, you are trying desperately to say something but it sounds like verbal diarrhea. I did not realise Pulevski came from Galicnik. They have traditions that pre-date modern Greece by thousands of years.

              Pulevski was self-taught because nobody encouraged the separate identity. I find it interesting you bring him up. Shall we compare him to Makryannis? You know, someone who wrote in the vernacular. The differences are compelling. Greeks celebrate the person who spoke in the local Turkish/Greco vernacular. They forget that he was no particular literary genius, that he in fact was famous because he sounded like Mum and Dad in the good ole days. Pulevski on the other hand was far more capable and his significance was far greater than Wikipedia will allow you to believe.

              If you want to go back to Misirkov, remind me again how significant greeks were in Macedonia as a collective group of people.
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

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              • Truth Bearer
                Banned
                • Sep 2008
                • 120

                #37
                No what I'm trying to understand is that do you agree with Pulevskis theory as in being Macedonian Slavs??I mean no disrespect here but in all his books he refers to you all as that.I'm just asking you guys do you agree??

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13675

                  #38
                  Truth Bearer, stop the lies you misinformed parrot, your deluded presumptions need to be medically examined.

                  ........do you agree with Pulevskis theory as in being Macedonian Slavs??I mean no disrespect here but in all his books he refers to you all as that.

                  No, we don't agree, because what you say is incorrect. Pulevski refers to his people and language at times as Slavjano-Macedonians, at other times as simply Macedonians. In one of his books he clearly states that the reason why the -Slavjano- prefix is added is due to the Macedonian language being a descendant from Old Slavonic, therefore it is supposed to be a mark of honouring its history and glory. I will repeat, other times he makes reference simply to Macedonian(s). The fact that you try and pick something as insignificant as that reveals a sad and pathetic motive for sliming about here and other Macedonian forums, I could go on about how Makrigianni the great 'Greek' hero referred to himself and people as Romans many times, but I don't feel the need to waste my time on some guy with a Fez who fancied looking more like a Turk.

                  It have to be pointed, there were a number of occasions in which Pulevski was regarded as ethnic Bulgarian by Serbian, Russian and Bulgarian authorities.

                  Your reasoning doesn't add up, didn't you refer to him as a Vlach before? Do you have proof to support that lie? Do you have any proof at all to support the quote above which you cite from Wikipedia where the Macedonian Pulevski is regarded as an "ethnic Bulgarian" by Serbian, Russian and Bulgarian authorities? You think that living in Sofia or being a volunteer in a foreign army fighting for freedom makes one a constituent of the relevant nation? He fought in Serbia and Bulgaria and as a Russian volunteer against the Turks, he also fought in Macedonia as a Macedonian for Macedonian freedom. You had Russians, French, English and Germans all fighting the Greek war of independence for you against the Turkish troops while the musket-armed peasants you call your 'Hellenic' heroes today were too busy robbing each other and slaughtering unarmed Muslims (Many of whom were Greek-speakers) and Jews.

                  As much as Tito forced people to change their names from OV to SKI

                  That lie has been done to death. That many people in Macedonia within Yugoslavia began to adopt such a suffix for their names in no secret, but, where is your evidence that Tito himself forced anybody to change their names? Do you have some sort of document, a decree, anything that stipulates such a clause in order to be a member of the Macedonian republic? Half of the people in the Republic of Macedonia still have OV/EV names, there are other places where you can take this joke of an argument and it will be given the time of day, here we aim to iron out such comedic lies that have long been spread on the internet by people such as yourself.

                  Greek was spoken right throughout the Balkans yet by the 10th century it disapeared in the northern part of the Balkans.In the southern part though it survived how is this so?How can a language survive if the people who speak it as their mother tongue are not Greek??

                  Are you trying to claim that today's Croats, Bosnians and Serbs are descendants of 10th century native Greek-speaking people? Or are you trying to manipulate some facts into making readers think this? The Greek language was for centuries what English is today, that is why it survived, just like English will survive in Scotland, Ireland, and other places more distant. Greek was also the main language of Eastern Christianity (initially) and hence the East Roman Empire, it was also the language of trade so Mustafa, Wilhelm, Branko and Giovanni could sell peanuts to each other in a common tongue.

                  Let me make it clear to you that I don't doubt the existence of Greek-speaking pockets of people in the Balkans, but history records Albanians in Attica and most of 'old Greece', it records Latin-speaking Vlachs in Thessaly, Epirus and further south, it records Slavic-speakers from Morea (Peloponnese) - No, it was not them who propagated the Greek language and aided in its survival, it was largely the East Roman Empire and its desire to consolidate its lands and bring them into the same political fold. It had nothing to do with "ethnic Greeks" or "ethnic Hellenes", if it did, you would have long ago shown evidence of this, but given the fact that hardly any if any emperors of the East Roman Empire were actually from 'old Greece', I fail to see the significance where it concerns the modern nation which now calls itself 'Hellenic'.

                  Confusing? Sure is, your people should have remain with their 2,000 year old Roman identity, then at least you could make a few more plausible claims rather than the far-fetched myths you do these days.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Truth Bearer
                    Banned
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 120

                    #39
                    Are you trying to claim that today's Croats, Bosnians and Serbs are descendants of 10th century native Greek-speaking people? Or are you trying to manipulate some facts into making readers think this? The Greek language was for centuries what English is today, that is why it survived, just like English will survive in Scotland, Ireland, and other places more distant. Greek was also the main language of Eastern Christianity (initially) and hence the East Roman Empire, it was also the language of trade so Mustafa, Wilhelm, Branko and Giovanni could sell peanuts to each other in a common tongue.
                    No these people came to the Balkans around the 6th century A.D.I was refering that Greek was spoken before their arrival and since they became the majority the Greek language dissapeared and Slavic bevcame the lingua franca of the region.Now since many Slavs came all the way south to the Peloponese they didn't sustain their language and in disapeared due to the greater majority Greek speakers in Greece......
                    You see SoM unlike Englisgh that will survive because English is today's lingua franca thjrough schooling,education,computers,TV,movies,internet by globalisation.How did Greek survive when there was noone of that back then?How diud Latin dissapear when the powers at the time spoke Latin??The Venetians,Genoans the powers of trade throughout the sea??

                    Comment

                    • Truth Bearer
                      Banned
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 120

                      #40
                      Let me make it clear to you that I don't doubt the existence of Greek-speaking pockets of people in the Balkans, but history records Albanians in Attica and most of 'old Greece', it records Latin-speaking Vlachs in Thessaly, Epirus and further south, it records Slavic-speakers from Morea (Peloponnese) - No, it was not them who propagated the Greek language and aided in its survival, it was largely the East Roman Empire and its desire to consolidate its lands and bring them into the same political fold. It had nothing to do with "ethnic Greeks" or "ethnic Hellenes", if it did, you would have long ago shown evidence of this, but given the fact that hardly any if any emperors of the East Roman Empire were actually from 'old Greece', I fail to see the significance where it concerns the modern nation which now calls itself 'Hellenic'.
                      So again I ask SoM how come the language Greek dissapeared throughout the Byzantine regions after the fall of Constantinople yet Greek survived in Greece??On top of that hopw can a language surve when there were no schools nor any form of education in the Balkans.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Truth Bearer View Post
                        No these people came to the Balkans around the 6th century A.D.I was refering that Greek was spoken before their arrival and since they became the majority the Greek language dissapeared and Slavic bevcame the lingua franca of the region.Now since many Slavs came all the way south to the Peloponese they didn't sustain their language and in disapeared due to the greater majority Greek speakers in Greece......
                        You see SoM unlike Englisgh that will survive because English is today's lingua franca thjrough schooling,education,computers,TV,movies,internet by globalisation.How did Greek survive when there was noone of that back then?How diud Latin dissapear when the powers at the time spoke Latin??The Venetians,Genoans the powers of trade throughout the sea??
                        You said "Greek was spoken right throughout the Balkans yet by the 10th century it disapeared in the northern part of the Balkans", now you are are talking about the Greek language being spoken prior to the 6th century, you're all over the place and you seem to be having difficulties in patching up the same lies over again. It didn't take 4-500 years for the Croats and Serbs to become a majority where they live.

                        The Slavic-speakers of Morea and the rest of the southern Balkans didn't lose their language because of their Greek-speaking neighbours, they lost it (eventually) because they were gradually absorbed into the East Roman system.

                        Latin disappeared because the Greek language had a longer history in the region where it concerned trade, religion and education, many in Rome even learned Greek and imitated elements of ancient Greek culture, thank the Romans in this respect. Or would you like to thank Heraclius of Africa who re-introduced the Greek language into the East Roman Empire for practical rather than "ethnic" reasons? Was Heraclius an "ethnic Greek"? Where was Heraclius originally from?
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13675

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Truth Bearer View Post
                          So again I ask SoM how come the language Greek dissapeared throughout the Byzantine regions after the fall of Constantinople yet Greek survived in Greece??On top of that hopw can a language surve when there were no schools nor any form of education in the Balkans.
                          There were churches where the Greek language was dominant over others, these also acted as schools many times. And didn't I already acknowldge that there were pockets of Greek-speaking people also?

                          Where we differ in this respect is our views on the numerical aspect, you speak in vague terms so that it makes it easy to worm out of corners everytime I chase for some specifics.

                          Whichever way you look at it, it certainly had little to do with the unknown "Hellenism" which began in the late 18th/early 19th century upon initiation from outsiders.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Truth Bearer
                            Banned
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 120

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                            Was Heraclius an "ethnic Greek"? Where was Heraclius originally from?
                            Heraclius was from Sinope in the Pontian region where Greek speakers were dominant.......

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13675

                              #44
                              Really? His Latin name was Flavius Heraclius Augustus, and according to historians he was born into an Armenian family from Cappadocia, which is located in Inner Asia Minor, not in the Black Sea coastal city of Sinope.

                              Are you wrong?
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Truth Bearer
                                Banned
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 120

                                #45
                                That's his Latin official title buddy.....About his birth place it's Sinope and he grew up in Cappadoccia and his father was part Armenian his mother was Greek and the only language he spoke was Greek.

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