Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[YuriB]

Unfortunately the Greeks that were previously on this forum have essentially ruined any instant goodwill or trust for new members of the same ethnic group, which means you have to do a little extra to earn it, hence the questions. And here are my final questions for now, which country are you writing from and what's with the Russian email?

Agreed! I'm happy to be acquainted. I am probably not a good Greek specimen though! Haha

I created a new email account to protect my anonymity (I googled free email account and that website came up, didn't know it was Russian).

The country is New Zealand! Hence my kiwi avatar, which is actually not showing yet. And yes, kiwi is the bird (or the people), not the fruit and we are rather picky on that! Haha

[YuriB]

You're assuming the agreement affords the luxury of logic. The Greek government dug Macedonia's grave by forcing the latter's idiot politicians to officially sign away the formal right to claim our rightful heritage and our kinship with the Macedonians in southern Macedonia.

You are correct. The problem was the difference in power (aka realism). Misguided if you ask me..

The Macedonians in southern Macedonia (or northern Greece) have unfortunately been stigmatized and pushed to the point of self-deletion. There was this guy from north Greece in the army whose last name was Grouios. When I suggested he might be related to the Prime Minister back then Grouevski, he was shocked and started vehemently denying it (I had just suggested it in a nice manner but his disportional reaction made me realize the pressure he and his family probably went through)

I don't know if the Macedonian government or diaspora could do much for them at this point. The Greek government perceive it as interference and react even worse.. There is no good solution other than more Greek people being exposed to Macedonian Greeks and realizing they are indeed real and just human beings who want to live their lives, speak their language and keep their customs.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't know if the Macedonian government or diaspora could do much for them at this point. The Greek government perceive it as interference and react even worse.

They perceive it as interference because they have something to hide. I doubt New Zealand considers it interference when Greece supports the cultural activities of Greeks in that country. Macedonia officially acknowledges the existence of self-declared Greeks in its national census. Greece doesn't do the same because there are way more Macedonians there. It just doesn't fit with their narrative and myth that my people don't exist in that wretched hole. No offence to you personally, but after so many years of reading and watching Greek racism towards Macedonians I can't always be bothered qualifying all of my negative statements against Greece or Greeks. Just take it as a given that they're not meant to be generalisations and I know that there are some good Greeks as far as the Macedonian issue is concerned.

There is no good solution other than more Greek people being exposed to Macedonian Greeks and realizing they are indeed real and just human beings who want to live their lives, speak their language and keep their customs.

If by "Macedonian Greeks" you're referring to the Macedonians of Greece (or Aegean Macedonians), then call them as per the latter to avoid any misunderstandings. If the Balkan region was normal, one could refer to Macedonian Greeks (Macedonians from Greece) and Greek Macedonians (Greeks from the Macedonian Republic) or vice versa like they do in most other countries, but nothing is normal in the Balkans, and sensitivities in relation to such terminology transcends semantics. I am sure you can appreciate our position.

[YuriB]

Yep, I meant Macedonians of Greece (or Aegean Macedonians) , ie, people with Macedonian self-determination and a Greek passport. Of course, after 30 years of this stuff, one has to be careful on correct naming.

Greece never collects ethnicity data, only nationality. It's the trick that circumvents the "problem". Many Greeks can't tell the difference between the two.. I've met a few of these "non-existent" people myself. It's not that hard for other Greeks (if they move beyond the craziness) to find some too. (This last bit was for any Greeks reading it: Be kind and let people open up)

[Vangelovski]

For 3 decades we had to fight the term 'slav Macedonian'. Now its going to be North Macedonian. Except now they can just point to the Prespes (not Prespa?) Agreement and our constitution and day this is what you chose.

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/welcome-north-macedonia/

[Risto the Great]

But the clever Macedonians will beg to differ. Just like when they refused to accept "FYROM" but insisted on the full Former Yugoslav Republic of Monkeys. They are so clever, they will find a solution inside their own minds.

[Vangelovski]

But the clever Macedonians will beg to differ. Just like when they refused to accept "FYROM" but insisted on the full Former Yugoslav Republic of Monkeys. They are so clever, they will find a solution inside their own minds.

Kinda like this

[Tomche Makedonche]

Kinda like this

geez that made me laugh... cause it’s true

[Carlin]

NATO Dashes to Expand in Balkans After North Macedonia Name Deal

URL:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-28/north-macedonia-dashes-toward-nato-entry-after-name-change-deal

January 28, 2019

NATO approved the accession protocol for soon-to-be renamed North Macedonia, weeks after the former Yugoslav republic and Greece settled a decades-long dispute that hindered its membership.

At the center of a tug-of-war for influence between Russia and the West, the Balkan state cleared its biggest hurdle to joining the military alliance last month by agreeing to change its name from "the Republic of Macedonia." Greece, which had blocked its neighbor’s entry because it said the name should apply only to one of its northern provinces that was once home to Alexander the Great, approved a measure last week to drop its objections.

That allowed North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg to circulate the accession protocol for the Republic of North Macedonia to the ambassadors of the alliance in Brussels Monday. Greece has agreed to be the first to sign, which will activate the name change and pave the way for a process that will increase the alliance’s numbers to 30.

“The date for the signing of the Accession Protocol will be determined in the coming days," a NATO official said by email. "Following the signing of the Accession Protocol, Skopje can take part in NATO activities as an invitee."

North Macedonia’s participation in NATO is yet another blow to Russia, which has struggled to cling to its former sphere of influence in the Balkans, the site of Europe’s bloodiest conflicts since the end of World War II. Once the protocol is signed, it must be ratified by NATO member parliaments.

The land-locked country of 2 million is following its regional peers Montenegro, Albania and Croatia, which have already proclaimed their pro-western allegiances by joining the military club. It will have to increase its military spending to fulfill a demand led by the U.S., which has urged all members to commit at least 2 percent of their gross domestic product to military outlays.

[Risto the Great]

It will have to increase its military spending to fulfill a demand led by the U.S., which has urged all members to commit at least 2 percent of their gross domestic product to military outlays.

Let the spiralling debts begin.

[Carlin]

That's for NATO. What about the EU?

Commission dismisses ND threat of veto of North Macedonia’s EU path

URL:

https://www.tovima.gr/2019/01/28/international/commission-dismisses-nd-threat-of-veto-of-north-macedonias-eu-path/

‘We believe that in light of recent developments efforts in this respect [North Macedonia’s EU course] should be strengthened,’ said a Commission spokesperson.

28.01.2019

Responding to a question on main opposition New Democracy leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis’ declaration that if elected PM he will reserve the right to veto North Macedonia’s EU course (presumably by blocking negotiating chapters), European Commission spokesperson Maja Kocijancic dismissed the notion.

“The EU perspective is very present. The Council last year set forth a clear path toward the opening of accession talks in June, 2019. We believe that in light of recent developments efforts in this respect should be strengthened, although this is a broader task that also involves work on reforms. Nevertheless, we have a clear road ahead,” Kocijanic told reporters.

[Big Bad Sven]

For 3 decades we had to fight the term 'slav Macedonian'. Now its going to be North Macedonian. Except now they can just point to the Prespes (not Prespa?) Agreement and our constitution and day this is what you chose.

https://www.neweurope.eu/article/wel...rth-macedonia/

It’s the same thing regarding the ancient Macedonians and notable figures such as Alexander the Great. The Macedonians have spent 30 years fighting, trying to ‘prove’ that they have just as much right to have a connection with ancient Macedonians and heritage/history. All of this has now been in vain because of the Prespa agreement and Macedonians do really look like an artificial nation and laughing stock.

Now the Macedonians have signed away any link they have the ancient Macedonians – agreeing it is solely belonging to Modern day Greece. There can be no mention of the ancient Macedonians as Macedonian but always Greek, the star of kutlesh is forbidden (a banner of hope of nationalism for Macedonia, not illegal to use LOL).

Soon Macedonia will have to rename all statues of ancient Macedonians with disclaimers that they are Greek. It is the same with school books. Essentially it will be like what happened with the ventilator flag. We will have a new generation of Macedonians who would be raised and educated to believe ancient Macedonian history was Greek and belongs to modern day greeks. These statues of alexander and philliip will be in the same league as statues of mother Theresa and Serbian kings – non Macedonians who had some minor connection to Macedonia years ago.

Macedonians in the next generation will look and the 90’s and early 2000’s in confusion on why their parents fought so hard and tried claiming they where related to the ancient Macedonians when they are nothing more than southern slavs that are citizens of the multi-cultural republic of northern Macedonia (according to the prespa agreement). People in the west will look at this period as a curios oddity and be amused/laugh at how Macedonians keep flopping on who they are.

[Big Bad Sven]

NATO Dashes to Expand in Balkans After North Macedonia Name Deal

URL:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-28/north-macedonia-dashes-toward-nato-entry-after-name-change-deal

January 28, 2019

NATO approved the accession protocol for soon-to-be renamed North Macedonia, weeks after the former Yugoslav republic and Greece settled a decades-long dispute that hindered its membership.

At the center of a tug-of-war for influence between Russia and the West, the Balkan state cleared its biggest hurdle to joining the military alliance last month by agreeing to change its name from "the Republic of Macedonia." Greece, which had blocked its neighbor’s entry because it said the name should apply only to one of its northern provinces that was once home to Alexander the Great, approved a measure last week to drop its objections.

That allowed North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg to circulate the accession protocol for the Republic of North Macedonia to the ambassadors of the alliance in Brussels Monday. Greece has agreed to be the first to sign, which will activate the name change and pave the way for a process that will increase the alliance’s numbers to 30.

“The date for the signing of the Accession Protocol will be determined in the coming days," a NATO official said by email. "Following the signing of the Accession Protocol, Skopje can take part in NATO activities as an invitee."

North Macedonia’s participation in NATO is yet another blow to Russia, which has struggled to cling to its former sphere of influence in the Balkans, the site of Europe’s bloodiest conflicts since the end of World War II. Once the protocol is signed, it must be ratified by NATO member parliaments.

The land-locked country of 2 million is following its regional peers Montenegro, Albania and Croatia, which have already proclaimed their pro-western allegiances by joining the military club. It will have to increase its military spending to fulfill a demand led by the U.S., which has urged all members to commit at least 2 percent of their gross domestic product to military outlays.

Most people dont really care about NATO, their dream is entering the EU. Their dreams are that this will create more jobs and a pay rise (yeah right LOL) and easier travel oppurtunities.

I wonder how the population will feel when they are told it will take around 10 years for macedonia to enter the EU/start the process. And then you have the possibility of bulgaria or cyprus vetoing if greece does not

[Gocka]

Most people dont really care about NATO, their dream is entering the EU. Their dreams are that this will create more jobs and a pay rise (yeah right LOL) and easier travel oppurtunities.

I wonder how the population will feel when they are told it will take around 10 years for macedonia to enter the EU/start the process. And then you have the possibility of bulgaria or cyprus vetoing if greece does not

I argue with people daily about this fact. The power that be pushed for the name change for NATO purposes, yet Macedonians thought it was about the EU. Typical bait and switch.

Now instead of money flooding in form the magical EU, money will be flooding out to pay for useless military hardware that can never be used.

[Vangelovski]

geez that made me laugh... cause it’s true

We won man...we won.