Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[vicsinad]

In all likeliness, Russia will simply make a statement about the matter.

Given that Macedonians have remained passive, the only real act that can save the name from being changed now is a failure in Greek parliament to pass the agreement.

[Vangelovski]

At times like these I can't help but think back to all those people who would reassure us that Gruevski had a plan or that it wasn't the right time to pull out of negotiations. I think my all time favourite was when Meto said that Macedonia should not end the negotiations but temporarily suspend them.

It was a time of complete delusional fuckwitism. Like that idiot qouted above, I wonder how many others will suffer from the bitter after taste of ass once the euros never rain down.

[Phoenix]

Vicsinad,

I don't think Russia will do anything in the UN to stop this. Their interest is not in saving our name, but rather in delaying or preventing NATO membership - they can do that covertly by getting Bulgaria to veto or by persuading Albania to veto unless more concessions are made to Albanians in Macedonia.

The Albanians wouldn't dare disrupt any plan the US has for Macedonia or the Balkans.

[vicsinad]

So the new identity cards will include minorities' ethnicities. How ridiculous.

(Article translated into English from Google)

https://www.slobodnaevropa.mk/a/29708979.html

Within five years or by 2024 at the latest, the personal documents of the citizens will bear the new name "Republic of Northern Macedonia". The new amendments will include the ethnicity of the minority communities in the country.

New identity cards and passports will have to be purchased by the citizens, as well as new plates of the registration plates of their vehicles, within five years at the latest after the name agreement in the Greek Parliament has been ratified and after the Macedonian MPs pass the necessary constitutional changes sealed the new name of the state "Republic of Northern Macedonia".

The registration plates in the future will bear the abbreviation NМ or NМК, and the new name of the country will be inserted in the identity cards and passports. Within 5 years, all other documentation of the public administration for external use, but also for internal use, will have to be changed and their publication will start with the opening of each chapter of the relevant field in the negotiations with the EU. This means that each institution will change its name and documentation step by step.

It is still not known how the personal documents of the citizens will be changed, which will not expire within the given deadline, although this will not be their burden, at least according to the Government's announcements so far. In any case, by 2024, citizens will need to have an identity card or passport under the new state name.

The hardest part was the adoption of constitutional changes, but difficulties are also expected to implement the agreed process, depending on the political situation in the country, political analyst Xhelal Neziri said. According to him, the opening of the perspectives for Macedonia and NATO membership would create a better ground for the name-no-agreement agreement to be implemented.

"Otherwise, if this NATO effect does not happen or if the EU integration process does not give the expected results, I think the implementation will be a difficult process," Neziri said.
What were the initial amendments to the government, and what was finally accepted at the end?

The government initially announced four constitutional amendments that were directly derived from the Prespa Agreement. But after months of debates, political maneuvers and in order to secure the required two-thirds majority, they underwent changes.

At first, DUI's request was accepted, the Ohrid Framework Agreement to be inserted in the Preamble to the Constitution. The MPs also adopted the amendment of the independent parliamentary group of VMRO-DPMNE with which the constitutional amendments do not apply if Greece did not fulfill its obligations under the name agreement.

The most difficult part was the final phase of the adoption of the constitutional changes when, after several daily negotiations, Prime Minister Zoran Zaev reached an agreement with the Besa party of Bill Kasami, who had the key two MPs to complete the process.
Neziri points out that the aim of the political parties was to collect political points.

"All of these parties and groups were in fact not guided by whether the treaty was good or not, but were guided by what they would receive specifically as political parties and groups. I think that these amendments do not fundamentally change what has been agreed and which stands as an agreement between the two sides in Prespa and will not be reflected in the further implementation process, "adds Neziri.

With the amendment to Besa, besides the citizenship that will be Macedonian, there will be the nationality, that is, the ethnicity of the citizens from the minority communities. An amendment confirming that the Republic instead of the Macedonians equally takes care of all its citizens in the Diaspora, as well as the amendment stating that Macedonia has a new neighbor Republic of Kosovo.

[Phoenix]

...I think they won't ratify it. I think they are genuinely worried about what the wild animals of a constituency will do in response. Even though it is the total and utter raping of our people, to them its not enough. Even if they manage to bribe the last few votes they need to get it over the line, I'm thinking the people won't take it lightly.

If they had any sense they would ratify that shit in a second, then again if they had sense they wouldn't be Greeks would they.

Zaev has handed to the greeks everything that they wanted, except the fact that "Macedonia" is still officially in the title of the country.
It's like the greeks have fallen short of the mark, Greece is a country that has spent a fortune on this matter for decades, they have bred generations of fervent lunatics to pursue this cause and yet "Macedonia", the holy grail, still exists in some raped form as a country to their north...I'm not sure how that will sit for a few million deluded zombies that are so easily whipped into a frenzy.

The vote in the greek parliament could easily go either way...civil unrest is a distinct possibility...dirty political tricks are a to be expected...anything could happen...

Up until recently I never imagined a Macedonian politician selling the name...I never imagined the greeks would ever ratify such an agreement...but then I never imagined the levels of blackmail, corruption and foreign coercion, the trampling of the law and the constitution, I never imagined the wholesale indifference of the Macedonians during the last 18 months as this madness ramped up...I guess from now on, anything is possible and to be expected.

[vicsinad]

The vote in the greek parliament could easily go either way...civil unrest is a distinct possibility...dirty political tricks are a to be expected...anything could happen...

Generally I'm not a spiteful person, but I will feel some satisfaction if the Chauvinist Hellenic Republic spirals into violence and chaos. It's the least they deserve.

[Phoenix]

Generally I'm not a spiteful person, but I will feel some satisfaction if the Chauvinist Hellenic Republic spirals into violence and chaos. It's the least they deserve.

If the Tsipras government doesn't fall, if Solun isn't burnt to the ground, or a 'yellow-vest' type apocalypse doesn't descend on greece it actually makes them look pretty fuckin stupid I reckon...in other words, all those greek zombies that trolled the internet in their single-mindedness and myopia stood for nothing at all...

[Gocka]

The vote in the greek parliament could easily go either way...civil unrest is a distinct possibility...dirty political tricks are a to be expected...anything could happen...

You are right really anything can happen. The politics of it all have become so detached from reality that there is not telling how it will end. I would be surprised though if there wasn't at least some kind of violent reaction in the case of ratification.

Given that Macedonians have remained passive, the only real act that can save the name from being changed now is a failure in Greek parliament to pass the agreement.

What do you suppose the Macedonian reaction would be if Greece didn't ratify? I reckon Zaev says we must stay the course and beg the EU to pressure Greece. A reversal of the name change seems completely unlikely.


I will say one thing that has not been mentioned even though I'm sure most of you realize it:

Because of the name change to North Macedonia, now when you say to someone one "I am from Macedonia" what you are really saying is that you are from Greece. "Macedonia" is now a region in Greece and not a country. If you say "I am Macedonian" again it means a person from Greece. I don't think most people in NMK realize this yet. The region of northern Greece is called Macedonia, the country is not.

[Carlin]

The Russian ministry said that the manner in which the agreement was reached cannot guarantee a long-term settlement of a problem that is key to the country’s future, adding that Moscow plans to refer the issue to the UN Security Council.

From today's Kathimerini article "Moscow renews attack on name deal"

[Rogi]

Carlin,

I think the Russian statement said the agreement "should" go before the UN security council, but not that they plan to refer it there.

I think they're expecting the Macedonian President, Ivanov, to refer it there.

[vicsinad]

What do you suppose the Macedonian reaction would be if Greece didn't ratify? I reckon Zaev says we must stay the course and beg the EU to pressure Greece. A reversal of the name change seems completely unlikely.

The 2/3 majority in Macedonia's parliament voted to not implement the constitutional changes if Greece does not ratify it. I don't know if there's a time-limit in there, but theoretically Zaev can do something like that -- the irony: force another country to force you to change your name.

Because of the name change to North Macedonia, now when you say to someone one "I am from Macedonia" what you are really saying is that you are from Greece. "Macedonia" is now a region in Greece and not a country. If you say "I am Macedonian" again it means a person from Greece. I don't think most people in NMK realize this yet. The region of northern Greece is called Macedonia, the country is not.

North Macedonians will argue that the agreement says their nationality is Macedonian.

And what you point out will eventually lead to Macedonians referring to their country as North Macedonia just because, you know, they don't want to cause problems or confusion and just make everything easier.

[vicsinad]

Aside for a couple statements like calling Zaev a grown-up, this is one of the few recent Western-based articles that sums up Greece's belligerence. He also acknowledges that Zaev blackmailed and bribed members of parliament to get their votes.

https://www.guelphmercury.com/opinion-story/9124025-macedonia-what-s-in-a-name-/

[vicsinad]

Russia's stance. Will they pursue this?

The information and press office of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) called the new amendments to the Macedonian Constitution for changing the name of the country "artificial change of the name of the state in order to force Skopje to join NATO" and said that the problem with the renaming of the country should be considered by the United Nations Security Council in accordance with Article 3 of Council Resolution 845.

"It is about continuing the process of artificially changing the name of the state under foreign pressure in order to force Skopje into NATO. It is a violation of Macedonian laws. The position of the head of state and the attitude of the majority of the population rejecting the Prespa agreement are ignored. Permanent protests in Skopje and other Macedonian cities show a profound polarization of society. It is obvious that this way of resolving issues of national importance for the future of the country does not reflect the will of its population and can not serve as a tool for a long-term solution to the name issue of the country, "the statement said.

From the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs say that developments in Greece, ie Panos Kamenos' resignation, former defense minister and president of the Independent Greeks, the coalition government partner of SYRIZA, talk about "the explosiveness of the situation".

Additionally, it is also blamed that in Greece the same formula is applied in Macedonia - pressure for the adoption of the Prespa Agreement through the trampling of the will of the Greek people.

"The position of the Russian Federation on the name issue of the Macedonian state remains unchanged: a sustainable solution must be found without external pressures, imposed solutions and conditions from outside, which will be based on broad public support - both in the Republic of Macedonia and Greece - and only within the framework of law. We think that this issue must be considered by the United Nations Security Council in accordance with Article 3 of Security Council Resolution 845.

https://meta.mk/moskva-ustavnite-izmeni-ne-se-po-volja-na-narodot-sovetot-za-bezbednost-na-on-da-rasprava-za-imeto/

[Pelagonija]

Wait there’s more..

Albanian to become official

https://telma.com.mk/zakonot-za-jazitsite-e-objaven-vo-sluzhben-vesnik/

Sneaky..

[Vangelovski]

I know I'm always that guy, the one going around telling everyone that they're wrong, but you're wrong on the UN thing.

The UN has no authority to determine the contents of international agreements - those made between sovereign states. The only authority it has is to act as an official repository (depository?) if the parties to these agreements choose to register these agreements with the UN and only for the purpose of invoking those agreements within the UN. For example, when Macedonia sued Greece in the international court of justice to enforce its name FYROM.

If you read Security Council Resolutions 817 and 845 you'll see there's a lot of urging, a lot of noting, a lot of welcoming and a lot of recommending. But there is no directing anyone to do anything or authorising any UN organ to make any decision about anything. That is because it does not have the authority to do so.

The most Russia can do is huff and puff and spread false hope for patriots and fear for fyromanians.

Its all an interesting conversation, but nothing more.