Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Phoenix]

URL:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/236405/article/ekathimerini/news/greek-pm-says-he-would-seek-confidence-vote-if-coalition-breaks-up

Asked about the timing of the ratification of the name deal in Athens, Tsipras said he will bring it before lawmakers immediately after the country receives official note of its completion in Rep. of Macedonia. He warned that if Greece refuses to ratify it after Rep. of Macedonia has been made to change its constitution "the country will become an international laughing stock."

Putting aside the smallest shred of legitimacy that the greeks believe they have in this issue (in other words, the greek fabricated name question has always solely been used to bury the injustices committed against the Macedonian people), its resolution has become nothing but a personal pissing contest between Zaev and Tsipras to garner western approval of their statesmanship...both leaders are more interested in their political legacy, as internationalists, rather than the future implications of their actions.

The perceived failure of either Zaev or Tsipras in getting this agreement over the line is merely a personal defeat.
For the greeks, failure will not have any lasting ramifications, for the Macedonian people, the enactment of the agreement is a total and unequivocal disaster.

Failure for Tsipras means a long and lonely walk into the political sunset with his tail between his legs and a minor dent of his ego, Greece loses nothing either way...Zaev is the only one that has put everything Macedonian's hold dear on the line to get the deal done, everything that is not his, has been auctioned to the lowest bidder, these are not the actions of a statesman but more in keeping with his real qualifications and expertise as a small town crook.

[Pelagonija]

Big Merkel will kindly remind Greece who owns Greece. Greeks will ratify. Though how funny would it be if the Greeks don’t ratify. Macedonians are retarded hence not even the above hypothetical scenario would galvanise the mob into a nationalist frenzy. But the western govs would end up with egg on their faces as they rallied hard to get this over the line, ignoring human rights, democratic values and even ignored the failed referendum.

Interesting to see how much Zaev will concede to the Shiptari..

In addition to above why would they reverse something they so easily gave up on, obviously no one gives a crap anyway.

[vicsinad]

No consensus as of a few minutes ago. Zaev is standing up to the Albanians by wanting to keep citizenship as: "Macedonian/citizen of North Macedonia."

But he's only "standing up" to them because the Prespa Agreement says we cannot say "Macedonia" but have to say "North Macedonia." BESA wanted it to say "Citizenship of Macedonia/citizen of North Macedonia"

Kakvo narod sme nie.

https://365.com.mk/290323/alsat-besa-bara-drzhavjanstvo-na-makedonija-drzhavjanin-na-zaev-ne-prifaka

Преговорите меѓу премиерот Зоран Заев и партискиот врв на БЕСА на Билал Касами се во ќорсокак и тешко дека ќе се постигне договор, дознава „Алсат“.

Според неофицијални извори, Заев не го прифаќа барањето на БЕСА државјанството во Уставот да биде определено на следниов начин: „државјанство на Македонија/државјанин на Република Северна Македонија“.

БЕСА, од друга страна, го прифаќа „македонско“(то) државјанство за Македонците, но не и за Албанците, дознава „Алсат“.

Претходно премиерот Заев објасни дека се работи за проблем во преводот од албански и игра на зборови, но тоа сигурно нема да ја интересира Грција, бидејќи од Преспанскиот договор јасно произлегува дека во Уставот, а ни на државен документ, не може да стои фраза како „државјанство на Македонија“, без разлика на кој и јазик да е напишана. Впрочем, тоа е и една од главните поенти на уставните измени – секаде каде што стои „Македонија“ да се додаде „Северна“.

[Niko777]

No consensus as of a few minutes ago. Zaev is standing up to the Albanians by wanting to keep citizenship as: "Macedonian/citizen of North Macedonia."

But he's only "standing up" to them because the Prespa Agreement says we cannot say "Macedonia" but have to say "North Macedonia." BESA wanted it to say "Citizenship of Macedonia/citizen of North Macedonia"

Kakvo narod sme nie.

https://365.com.mk/290323/alsat-besa-bara-drzhavjanstvo-na-makedonija-drzhavjanin-na-zaev-ne-prifaka

Преговорите меѓу премиерот Зоран Заев и партискиот врв на БЕСА на Билал Касами се во ќорсокак и тешко дека ќе се постигне договор, дознава „Алсат“.

Според неофицијални извори, Заев не го прифаќа барањето на БЕСА државјанството во Уставот да биде определено на следниов начин: „државјанство на Македонија/државјанин на Република Северна Македонија“.

БЕСА, од друга страна, го прифаќа „македонско“(то) државјанство за Македонците, но не и за Албанците, дознава „Алсат“.

Претходно премиерот Заев објасни дека се работи за проблем во преводот од албански и игра на зборови, но тоа сигурно нема да ја интересира Грција, бидејќи од Преспанскиот договор јасно произлегува дека во Уставот, а ни на државен документ, не може да стои фраза како „државјанство на Македонија“, без разлика на кој и јазик да е напишана. Впрочем, тоа е и една од главните поенти на уставните измени – секаде каде што стои „Македонија“ да се додаде „Северна“.

This is so pathetic.

Kakvo narod sme nie.

Duri mi grede da bluam...

[Spirit]

No consensus as of a few minutes ago. Zaev is standing up to the Albanians by wanting to keep citizenship as: "Macedonian/citizen of North Macedonia."

But he's only "standing up" to them because the Prespa Agreement says we cannot say "Macedonia" but have to say "North Macedonia." BESA wanted it to say "Citizenship of Macedonia/citizen of North Macedonia"

Kakvo narod sme nie.

https://365.com.mk/290323/alsat-besa-bara-drzhavjanstvo-na-makedonija-drzhavjanin-na-zaev-ne-prifaka

Преговорите меѓу премиерот Зоран Заев и партискиот врв на БЕСА на Билал Касами се во ќорсокак и тешко дека ќе се постигне договор, дознава „Алсат“.

Според неофицијални извори, Заев не го прифаќа барањето на БЕСА државјанството во Уставот да биде определено на следниов начин: „државјанство на Македонија/државјанин на Република Северна Македонија“.

БЕСА, од друга страна, го прифаќа „македонско“(то) државјанство за Македонците, но не и за Албанците, дознава „Алсат“.

Претходно премиерот Заев објасни дека се работи за проблем во преводот од албански и игра на зборови, но тоа сигурно нема да ја интересира Грција, бидејќи од Преспанскиот договор јасно произлегува дека во Уставот, а ни на државен документ, не може да стои фраза како „државјанство на Македонија“, без разлика на кој и јазик да е напишана. Впрочем, тоа е и една од главните поенти на уставните измени – секаде каде што стои „Македонија“ да се додаде „Северна“.

The chickens are coming home to roost. The Pandora’s Box is fully opened and the they have fallen into the abyss with no way out. This is nothing but a token gesture and the Neanderthal buffoon will capitulate. This is so pathetic.

[Albo]

The dilemma is for the translated Albanian version to remain in it's current form.. the Macedonian and English versions as agreed to with greece - Makedonsko/Macedonian ..aren't being contested by Besa,

On current passports it states - Makedonsko/Macedonian/Maqedonisë (which in the term Maqedonisë in Albanaian means 'Of Mecedonia')

[vicsinad]

The dilemma is for the translated Albanian version to remain in it's current form.. the Macedonian and English versions as agreed to with greece - Makedonsko/Macedonian ..aren't being contested by Besa,

On current passports it states - Makedonsko/Macedonian/Maqedonisë (which in the term Maqedonisë in Albanaian means 'Of Mecedonia')

The dilemma is that your ilk won't stop until Macedonia, or North Macedonia, is completely Albanianized and Illydria becomes a reality.

Stop playing games here.

[Gocka]

The dilemma is for the translated Albanian version to remain in it's current form.. the Macedonian and English versions as agreed to with greece - Makedonsko/Macedonian ..aren't being contested by Besa,

On current passports it states - Makedonsko/Macedonian/Maqedonisë (which in the term Maqedonisë in Albanaian means 'Of Mecedonia')

It doesn't matter because none of these designations relate to ethnicity. By citizenship you are Macedonians. Why does it have to say of Macedonia? Why are you people so pointlessly backwards and contrarian in everything.

[vicsinad]

It doesn't matter because none of these designations relate to ethnicity. By citizenship you are Macedonians. Why does it have to say of Macedonia? Why are you people so pointlessly backwards and contrarian in everything.

They want to be a part of Macedonian society, always complaining about how Macedonia doesn't accept them, but despise everything Macedonia. Why can the Serbs, Vlachs, Turks and Roma live with "Macedonian" as their citizenship and not see it as a violation of some fundamental right, but the Albanians can't? They want to be treated as equals, but at the same time wanted to be separate.

[Gocka]

They want to be a part of Macedonian society, always complaining about how Macedonia doesn't accept them, but despise everything Macedonia. Why can the Serbs, Vlachs, Turks and Roma live with "Macedonian" as their citizenship and not see it as a violation of some fundamental right, but the Albanians can't? They want to be treated as equals, but at the same time wanted to be separate.

If you or I moved to Albania and took citizenship, we would be Albanian in regards to our citizenship. This is how it works everywhere in the fucking world, yet with these baboons, everything is a god damn problem!

This is what happens when you "negotiate" with backwards, disingenuous, and unreasonable people. Zaev is going to learn the hard way, both with the Greeks and Albanians, and probably later with the Bulgarians, why you do negotiate with animals. These people are not here to negotiate in good faith, they are out for blood. With every passing concession, their blood lust only grows bigger.

We will never have peace and understanding with any of our neighbors. They hate us, they will not stop until we either cease to exist, or submit to their every whim without question.

[Albo]

This provision may not make sense to many Macedonians.. but the priority of Albanian parties I believe is to protect and preserve Albanian identity and culture while at no point harming others..

Albanians were never asked if they wanted to be called Macedonians,
Macedonians don't see them as Macedonian, the proposed amendment won't effect ethbic Macedonians as they don't apply for the 3 language version of ID cards and Passports..

This request from the Besa party is only being insisted on in order to gain political points.. they will no doubt come to an agreement they are too small and irrelevant to disrupt the process.. they are just chest beating and playing the nationalist card.. both Besa and Selas Party actually added nothing in terms of specific 'Albanian Rights' through the amendments that Zaev accepted..

Also just on the citizenship issue..
Do you know what it says on passports for citizens of the USA?

[Spirit]

This provision may not make sense to many Macedonians.. but the priority of Albanian parties I believe is to protect and preserve Albanian identity and culture while at no point harming others..

Albanians were never asked if they wanted to be called Macedonians,
Macedonians don't see them as Macedonian, the proposed amendment won't effect ethbic Macedonians as they don't apply for the 3 language version of ID cards and Passports..

This request from the Besa party is only being insisted on in order to gain political points.. they will no doubt come to an agreement they are too small and irrelevant to disrupt the process.. they are just chest beating and playing the nationalist card.. both Besa and Selas Party actually added nothing in terms of specific 'Albanian Rights' through the amendments that Zaev accepted..

Also just on the citizenship issue..
Do you know what it says on passports for citizens of the USA?

You are fucking naive and plain ignorant. There is a difference between citizenship/ nationality and ethnicity. They are of Macedonian nationality and citizenship with Albanian ethnicity just as my nationality and citizenship is Australian with Macedonian ethnicity

[vicsinad]

This provision may not make sense to many Macedonians.. but the priority of Albanian parties I believe is to protect and preserve Albanian identity and culture while at no point harming others..

The provision doesn't make sense to any non-Albanian.

Albanians were never asked if they wanted to be called Macedonians,
Macedonians don't see them as Macedonian, the proposed amendment won't effect ethbic Macedonians as they don't apply for the 3 language version of ID cards and Passports..

Macedonians in Albania were never asked if they wanted to be called Albanian. Why aren't you advocating for the Macedonians in Albania? Macedonians are trying to see Albanians as Macedonian citizens, but KLA thugs and Greater Albania dreamers are making that a little difficult. Proposed amendment will affect ethnic Macedonians because it's another minor whip at the Macedonian in a revision of a constitution that is tearing apart the Macedonian identity -- in Macedonia. Albanians have more rights, as a collective whole, than Macedonians do in Macedonia.

This request from the Besa party is only being insisted on in order to gain political points.. they will no doubt come to an agreement they are too small and irrelevant to disrupt the process.. they are just chest beating and playing the nationalist card.. both Besa and Selas Party actually added nothing in terms of specific 'Albanian Rights' through the amendments that Zaev accepted..

Then why do you support it?

Also just on the citizenship issue..
Do you know what it says on passports for citizens of the USA?

If you're an Albanian from New York City, I think it's soon going to read United States of Albania. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Albo]

You are fucking naive and plain ignorant. There is a difference between citizenship/ nationality and ethnicity. They are of Macedonian nationality and citizenship with Albanian ethnicity just as my nationality and citizenship is Australian with Macedonian ethnicity

What Nationality are people from USA?

[Gocka]

What Nationality are people from USA?

What nationality are people from
France
Germany
Greece
Russia
China
THE REST OF WHOLE WORLD?

The USA lists nationality as United Sates of America, not American, you think you are clever right?

First of all it is one of a handful of countries in the entire world that don't go by convention and there is a very specific reason for that. American wouldn't work because the name of the country is not America. Secondly American has many meanings. South America and North America are continents. Technically anyone in those continents could be considered Americans.

And finally the real reason for the USA's unusual designation is:

The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 (INA) made a minor distinction between U.S. citizenship and U.S. nationality.[77] Citizenship comprises a larger set of privileges and rights for those persons that are U.S. citizens which is not afforded to individuals that are only U.S. nationals by virtue of their rights under the INA.[78] It is well-established that all U.S. citizens are U.S. nationals but not all U.S. nationals are U.S. citizens

Its simply a legal issue.

None of this is relevant in Macedonia.

What nationality are Macedonians in Albania? What does it say on their passports? What does it say on Italian passports for Albanians who live there? Why aren't you demanding the Italians "preserve" your identity.

If you mother fuckers don't want to be Macedonians then go live somewhere else. The only place in the world that you could go and still be considered an Albanian national/citizen is ALBANIA. But you know that, you just choose to ignore it.