Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Pelagonija]

I agree with above, most of the people I talk to are for the name change though didn’t vote, most of the young ones are in the process of leaving or want to leave, they could give a rats ass our history or anything Macedonian. The west opening the flood gates hasn’t helped either, it’s just too easy to leave.

[Risto the Great]

I was speaking with an articulate Romanian client yesterday about their EU membership. Essentially, Romania is still a shithole with zero new infrastructure fed through to important regional areas. No highways linking industrial areas. Nothing changed.

The only benefit is the ability to work in other countries. Which is precisely what is happening right now. The economy exists and hasn't self imploded solely because of it.

IF Macedonia gets in the EU, this is precisely what will happen. But I am sure something will happen with the ability to migrate. Macedonia is known for its "2nd rate undeserving nation" nature. It will be the only country to enter into the EU with rules that don't apply to any other nation. I guarantee it.

[maco2envy]

Speaking of shitholes in the EU...

Welcome to Bulgaria, the world’s fastest shrinking nation

Some 11 years after Bulgaria joined the EU – raising hopes for a swift rise in prosperity, a more robust democracy and broader social justice – data from Eurostat in Brussels now make for bleak reading.

Bulgaria has the lowest average salary in the EU (€575), the lowest minimum wage (€260) and the smallest average pension (€190).

The upshot is that more than 40 per cent of Bulgarians are now at risk of poverty and social exclusion – twice the proportion of Germans who find themselves in the same predicament.

In addition, while on average the top one-fifth of people in EU states earn 5.2 times more than the bottom one-fifth, in Bulgaria the haves make more than eight times more than the have-nots – without accounting for undeclared wealth.

“There are three Bulgarian realities,” says Daniel Kaddik, the Sofia-based director of the Friedrich Naumann Foundation in southeast Europe.

“People with an average salary don’t live a good life here, with prices for food, energy and other things that are comparable with elsewhere in Europe.”
“Then there is a relatively small middle class who have their own bubble, and work in start-ups or international companies, and live in some areas of Sofia that are comparable with parts of Berlin, for example.”

“Then there’s the upper class, which is detached from everything else. They have very fancy cars and private members’ clubs, and there is very often an overlap with shady business.”

“I lived in Berlin and I never saw a Maybach,” he adds. “In Sofia I’ve already seen three.”

The economy is growing at around 3.5 per cent, but the World Bank says it needs to expand “by at least 4 per cent per year over the next 25 years for Bulgaria to catch up with average EU income levels and thus boost shared prosperity”.

Bulgaria leads the EU when it comes to one unpalatable indicator – the prevalence of corruption, and graft is draining the economy, scaring away foreign investors and serving to keep people poor.

The country was the EU’s most corrupt nation in the latest Transparency International index, ranking in 71st place alongside South Africa and Vanuatu.

Just as alarmingly, an EU survey found last year that only one-quarter of Bulgarians would trust the police to deal with a corruption complaint, and police and customs officers are seen as the public servants most likely to take bribes.

The European Parliament estimates that corruption costs Bulgaria about 15 per cent of its gross domestic product (GDP) each year, and graft reaches into every facet of life – from rigged tenders, opaque contracts and kickbacks in multimillion-euro deals to the need for ordinary citizens to pay bribes to smooth their path through the country’s health and education systems and its Byzantine bureaucracy.

All these backhanders, big and small, feed a grey economy in Bulgaria that the International Monetary Fund (IMF) found last year was equivalent to 29.6 per cent of its GDP, the largest such share in the EU.

The result is a debilitating cycle of tax evasion and capital flight, depleted revenues for the government, sub-standard services for the public, and a grinding sense of injustice, grievance and mistrust towards officials and state institutions.

An EU survey last year found that when it came to achieving success in life, more than twice as many Bulgarians believe that “knowing the right people” is a bigger factor than having a good education.

This feeling that the game is rigged in favour of those with connections, and that poverty is permanent, is writ large in Bulgarian demographics - young people are leaving, couples are having fewer children and the population is falling fast.

The UN says Bulgaria is actually the world’s fastest shrinking nation, with its current population of about 7 million people expected to dwindle to 5.4 million by 2050 and 3.9 million by the end of the century.

Bulgaria has already lost almost 2 million people from a peak of nearly 9 million in 1989, revealing the massive and long-term impact of the transition from communism to capitalism on eastern Europe - where eight other countries are also expected to suffer a population decline of more than 15 per cent by 2050.

The EU’s highest mortality rate, coupled with one of the bloc’s lowest birth rate and the emigration of tens of thousands of workers each year, leave Bulgaria with a headache over how to fund pensions and healthcare for an ageing population.

It is no surprise that tens of thousands of Bulgarians seek jobs abroad each year, with Germany, Britain and Spain their favoured destinations, creating a chronic shortage of staff in country’s health service, schools and other major sectors.

“There are now places where you don’t have doctor within radius of 50km. You have to bring own toilet paper to the hospital and these kinds of things. It’s a climate that lots of people just don’t want to live in anymore,” says Kaddik.

While young professionals are leaving home in search of higher wages, better working conditions and a less corrupt environment, many Bulgarians do not even wait until graduation to start looking abroad for opportunities.

About 17 per cent of Bulgarian students went to a foreign university last year, and some of the country’s top universities are now trying to fill hundreds of empty places for the new term.

A glimmer of good news for people returning from abroad is that they will probably find the family home waiting. About 84 per cent of Bulgarians own the place where they live, compared to just 53 per cent in Germany.

“People were given the apartments where they were living (when communism collapsed) and they are lucky to own their homes, otherwise they simply could not afford their housing,” says Kaddik.

“A lot of Bulgarians, especially the elderly, rely on food grown on a little family plot outside the city. The family bond is strong here, and among friends and relatives there is a lot of exchange of small services and helping each other out – but it’s out of necessity because of a lack of good services.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/welcome-to-bulgaria-the-world-s-fastest-shrinking-nation-1.3658819

[Pelagonija]

Speaking of shitholes in the EU...

Welcome to Bulgaria, the world’s fastest shrinking nation



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...tion-1.3658819

This is what I keep harping on about. If there was tangible evidence that NATO/EU will bring wealth and prosperity I would understand that some people would be willing to make some sacrifices regarding the national cause, but to make such sacrifices for no gain is insanity, not just Bulgaria look at the Baltic states, Italy, Romania, Catalonia, Greece and Romania to name a few.

People don’t realise, once the youth are gone they will never come back, and with no youth there are no Doctor, scientists, labourers, teachers and innovators. Countries like Germany/US/France/England use such organisations such as EU and NATO for their long term survival. The rest will die out or be taken over by other races with other values.

[Gocka]

In a nutshell this was Goce Delchev's viewpoint of the world. A constant competition of ideas.

The western way of life is winning, and I guess people find it easier to go and live in a western country then fix the places they come from.

We are fighting a losing battle on the basis of ideas. We are selling something that no one wants to buy.

This conversation about the Prespa agreement is very nuanced. You have to cut through it all and get to the heart of it, which you already identified. People don't care about the implications of names and sovereignty and constitutions. This is purely about opening the exit door one way or another.

We get so caught up asking whether people are for a name change or not, that we miss the real problem. That 90% of the country would pick up and move tomorrow should the opportunity present itself. For me that is just as big of an abandonment of our history, culture, and identity as a name change.

This is what I keep harping on about. If there was tangible evidence that NATO/EU will bring wealth and prosperity I would understand that some people would be willing to make some sacrifices regarding the national cause, but to make such sacrifices for no gain is insanity, not just Bulgaria look at the Baltic states, Italy, Romania, Catalonia, Greece and Romania to name a few.

People don’t realise, once the youth are gone they will never come back, and with no youth there are no Doctor, scientists, labourers, teachers and innovators. Countries like Germany/US/France/England use such organisations such as EU and NATO for their long term survival. The rest will die out or be taken over by other races with other values.

[Vangelovski]

I was speaking with an articulate Romanian client yesterday about their EU membership. Essentially, Romania is still a shithole with zero new infrastructure fed through to important regional areas. No highways linking industrial areas. Nothing changed.

The only benefit is the ability to work in other countries. Which is precisely what is happening right now. The economy exists and hasn't self imploded solely because of it.

IF Macedonia gets in the EU, this is precisely what will happen. But I am sure something will happen with the ability to migrate. Macedonia is known for its "2nd rate undeserving nation" nature. It will be the only country to enter into the EU with rules that don't apply to any other nation. I guarantee it.

Most eastern bloc states had an exclusion period of about 10+ years where their citizens couldn't migrate after EU membership. Macedonia will be no different - at a minimum. Most likely though, as you say, it will have some weird rules where no one is allowed leave the country.

[Carlin]

Most eastern bloc states had an exclusion period of about 10+ years where their citizens couldn't migrate after EU membership. Macedonia will be no different - at a minimum. Most likely though, as you say, it will have some weird rules where no one is allowed leave the country.

Wow, Back in the EUSSR!

I have a hard time believing EU would impose such strict rules.

In any event, it appears Member States retain the right to determine volumes of admission for people coming from third countries (I haven't read the whole thing):

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/152/immigration-policy

[Pelagonija]

Counties like Bulgaria and Romania have large Gypsie populations. Not sure if restrictions were placed on the Baltic states and Central European states?

The west is certainly ramping up immigration intake due to declining birth rates I just had a cousin leave for Germany the other week..

Even here in Sydney, I heard on the radio that 100 000 immigrants per year have arrived in Sydney for the last ten years that’s an addition of one million people. The place is starting to resemble and smell like Calcutta.. can’t even go for a jog in the park without Indians playing cricket..

[Vangelovski]

Counties like Bulgaria and Romania have large Gypsie populations. Not sure if restrictions were placed on the Baltic states and Central European states?

The west is certainly ramping up emigration intake due to declining birth rates I just had a cousin leave for Germany the other week..

Even here in Sydney, I heard on the radio that 100 000 immigrants per year have arrived in Sydney for the last ten years that’s an addition of one million people. The place is starting to resemble and smell like Calcutta.. can’t even go for a jog in the park without Indians playing cricket..

Sydney has always smelt and resembled Calcutta

[Carlin]

This is what I keep harping on about. If there was tangible evidence that NATO/EU will bring wealth and prosperity I would understand that some people would be willing to make some sacrifices regarding the national cause, but to make such sacrifices for no gain is insanity, not just Bulgaria look at the Baltic states, Italy, Romania, Catalonia, Greece and Romania to name a few.

People don’t realise, once the youth are gone they will never come back, and with no youth there are no Doctor, scientists, labourers, teachers and innovators. Countries like Germany/US/France/England use such organisations such as EU and NATO for their long term survival. The rest will die out or be taken over by other races with other values.

Whether one agrees (supports) with this or not, NATO membership will bring security/stability to Macedonia. By definition, EU/NATO will not bring wealth and prosperity - this is what many politicians in the Balkans, in general, are deluded about.

Upon entry, they expect the wages to increase immediately to European standards but the only thing that may increase (first) is PRICES - which could likely raise in lockstep with EU prices. The purchasing power will decrease. So, Macedonians will be paying Paris-priced or Munich-priced goods in Skopje or Bitola, while the actual wages will remain at similar levels (or inch up in a best case scenario).

[Phoenix]

Whether one agrees (supports) with this or not, NATO membership will bring security/stability to Macedonia. By definition, EU/NATO will not bring wealth and prosperity - this is what many politicians in the Balkans, in general, are deluded about...

The ONLY benefit of Macedonia joining NATO is the protection (hopefully) of being destabilised or invaded by NATO itself...as has previously occurred.

[Carlin]

The ONLY benefit of Macedonia joining NATO is the protection (hopefully) of being destabilised or invaded by NATO itself...as has previously occurred.

Almost the entire Balkans was destabilized throughout the 90's. In 1999, VMRO-DPMNE/Georgievski allowed 12,000 NATO troops to deploy in Macedonia due to the Kosovo conflict (without any guarantees of Macedonia's security).

I know how you and others may feel about NATO, but what are the alternatives (if any)?

[maco2envy]

NATO was behind the Kumanovo events a few years ago, which was a plot to destabilize the state in order to get rid of grujo and install that degenerate majmun we have now.

Why join such an alliance?

[Karposh]

Counties like Bulgaria and Romania have large Gypsie populations. Not sure if restrictions were placed on the Baltic states and Central European states?

The west is certainly ramping up immigration intake due to declining birth rates I just had a cousin leave for Germany the other week..

Even here in Sydney, I heard on the radio that 100 000 immigrants per year have arrived in Sydney for the last ten years that’s an addition of one million people. The place is starting to resemble and smell like Calcutta.. can’t even go for a jog in the park without Indians playing cricket..

I'm hearing you Pelagonija. I work in North Sydney and I commute by train every day, from the predominantly white, Anglo-Saxon area of Sutherland Shire but, unfortunately, I have to change trains at Town Hall for a connecting train to North Sydney. I swear, you need a mask when you board the curry train from Parramatta, the smell is that strong. All the curry-munchers exit at Town Hall but the stench they leave behind is shocking. I never thought of myself as a racist before, especially considering I'm a wog myself, but Australia definitely needs to reinstate the 'white-Australia' policy back again. It shits me to tears that 90% of the commuters disembarking at Town Hall are mostly spin bowlers. How the fuck did so many of them infest the place so quickly.

[Pelagonija]

I'm hearing you Pelagonija. I work in North Sydney and I commute by train every day, from the predominantly white, Anglo-Saxon area of Sutherland Shire but, unfortunately, I have to change trains at Town Hall for a connecting train to North Sydney. I swear, you need a mask when you board the curry train from Parramatta, the smell is that strong. All the curry-munchers exit at Town Hall but the stench they leave behind is shocking. I never thought of myself as a racist before, especially considering I'm a wog myself, but Australia definitely needs to reinstate the 'white-Australia' policy back again. It shits me to tears that 90% of the commuters disembarking at Town Hall are mostly spin bowlers. How the fuck did so many of them infest the place so quickly.

Mate the government has lost it.. the roads, schools and hospitals remain the same yet they keep pumping people in. As for the Indians, 20 years ago you couldnt find an Indian if you tried, there was not one single Indian student in my primary or high schools and I grew up in a minority Anglo Saxon area. Now they are everywhere, you drive on the roads and all you’ll see is them. Most of them are unethical, lazy and bloody arrogant. I can’t stand them.

Why so many? cheap labour via the 457 visa, students paying big bucks to get there masters degree in our unis then obtaining citizenship , they speak English, generally they are cheap and are willing to work for less hence big business loves them.

I work in IT and have been involved in a few interviews with Indians with bullshit resumes, mate they farked. Don’t even get me started with our outsourced partners in India.. absolute animals..

Sorry for getting off the topic.