Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Soldier of Macedon]

A message from the Sultan:

Macedonians boycotted the referendum, it was an expected and wise decision. In that way they made it clear that no one should play with their nation, identity, language and culture. Turkey remains a great friend of Macedonia and Macedonians

One a more serious note, this is Macedonia's chance to form stronger ties with Turkey and Russia. As much of dictator erdogan is, his interests align with that of a Macedonian. Anti-US, anti-Greece and anti-Albanian (due to gulenist movement) and anti-globalism. Turkey is also a pivotal NATO member and the only member that has the guts to speak out against Greece.

That looks like it's from a mina report: http://www.minareport.com/2018/10/03...rave-as-usual/

Do you have access to the actual Hurriyet article in Turkish so we can validate this statement?

[maco2envy]

I had a look but I couldn't find it. But there are some macedonian sites which have reported the statement (partially):

https://infomax.mk/wp/%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BD-%D1%81%D0%BE-%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%B4%D0%BE-%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%BC%D0%B0/

Hopefully it's not fake news

[Soldier of Macedon]

I know the Turk gestures to Macedonia are quite nice. But we really are scraping the bottom of the friendship barrel with them. They would instantly prioritise ethnic Albanian Muslim demands over the Macedonians.

Not sure we're scraping the bottom of the barrel. Turkey's support against Greece has been of worth. A Turkey tempered (insofar as the Islamist tendencies go) by Russia where it concerns Macedonia could be manageable going forward, but reading things like the below raises a few red flags: http://dspace.epoka.edu.al/bitstream...=1&isAllowed=y

Yılmaz (2001: 112 – 114); at the turn of the century, Albania was among the most important foreign policy titles in Ankara, seen clearly in the 2001 Government Program: 1) following a policy to support democracy and market economy in Albania; 2) solution and internationalization of the ‘Albanian issue’ on grounds of respect for commitment arising from international documents; 3) prioritizing relations with the U.S.A. and Western European states with respect to Albania; 4) following the process of integration in Europe as well as integrating into European political and economic organizations; 5) prioritizing relations with Germany and Italy; 6) making every effort to stop the policy of pressure and cruelty on the Albanian minority in former Yugoslavia to help them enjoy the right to legitimate political will; 7) recognizing Macedonia on the condition of respect for the rights and free movement of Albanians in Macedonia; and 8) making efforts to help Kosovo to be recognized and working for the peaceful solution of the problem.

[Risto the Great]

Precisely my reason for concern. An attempt to make Macedonia the homeland of Macedonians will be seen as a threat to the status of the ethnic Albanians.

[Pelagonija]

Well said Maria Zakharova on this artificial crisis supported by the west. No one needs NATO besides the corporate fascists and warmongers..

https://www.b92.net/eng/news/world.php?yyyy=2018&mm=10&dd=04&nav_id=105216

They meddled in Macedonia's internal affairs, Russia believes.

"Despite the fact that leading politicians in the EU and NATO member-states openly urged Macedonian citizens to vote in favor, which, we believe is a totally unacceptable practice, all this ended in failure," Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said.

The referendum question was, ""Are you in favor of membership in the EU and NATO by accepting the agreement between the Republic of Macedonia and the Republic of Greece?"

Zakharova said that despite the fact the referendum failed due to low turnout, western countries "welcomed its results without batting an eyelid."

"In particular, NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg promised to grant Skopje membership in the alliance as early as the beginning of 2019, leaving no doubt that the parliaments of Macedonia and Greece would pass the required decisions," Zakharova noted.

"The continuation of heavy-handed outside interference in Macedonia's internal affairs is evident. The goal is obvious - to drag Skopje into the alliance at any cost," she said.

Zakharova also remarked that the opinion of more than half of Macedonia's citizens, including the country's president - who is opposed to the agreement - "is not being taken into account."

[Pelagonija]

VMRO claiming mass voter fraud in Albanian majority towns.. any credibility to this story or is it a case of the wolf in sheeps clothing..?

Interesting..

https://vecer.press/%D0%B2%D0%BC%D1%80%D0%BE-%D0%B4%D0%BF%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D1%9C%D0%B5-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B5-%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2-20/

Централниот комитет на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ не го признава резултатот од референдумот зашто го смета за груб фалсификат, а утре ќе поднесе кривична пријава до Јавното обвинитество против повеќе од 200 лица, претседатели, членови и нивни заменици на избирачки одбори во Струга, Центар Жупа, Кичево, Желино, Боговиње, Пласница и Сарај.

Како што соопшти потретседателот на партијата Алкесандар Николовски по седницата на Централниот комитет, на сите овие лица на товар им се стават шест кривични дела – злоупотреба на службена положба и овластувања, несовесно работење во службата, злоупотреба на избирачко право, изборна измама, фалсификување и уништување деловни книги и повреда на тајноста на гласањето.

Според него сите овие дела ги видела целата јавност, но не и јавниот обвинител и нагласи дека од таа причина бараат разрешување на јавиниот обвинител на предлог на опизицијата, кој, како што рече „треба да се позанимава со разгледување на сите нерегуларности на тој ден“.

Тој обвини дека за време и по референдумот се вршени притисоци. Како што рече, над 50.000 гласови биле злоупотребени во текот на референдумот, а и грубо биле полнети кутии. – Голем број граѓани кои не излегоа или излегоа и гласаа „против“ се преместени од своите работни места или се избркани од приватни компании, изјави Николовски.

ЦК на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ вечерва ги потврди заклучоците, што вчера ги донесе ИК – разрешување на јавниот обвинител, формирање собраниска анкетна комисија, која треба да ги истражи сите нерегуларности и да ги процесира до соодветните органи и почитување на Законот за Влада, со цел доколку има избори да се формира влада по Пржински модел.

Според него, на вечерашната седница не станало збор за кадровски прашања.

Во врска со шпекулациите дека некои од пратениците веќе потпишале дека нема да гласаат за уставни измени рече дека во овој момент нема таква активност.

– Ставот на пратеничката група останува ист како и пред референдумот – пратеничката група ќе ја следи волјата на граѓаните, а тоа е дека референдумот пропаднал, рече тој.

Во врска со евентуални предвремени избори, Николовски истакна дека ВМРО-ДПМНЕ останува на ставот за формирање влада по пржинскиот модел со мандат од 100 дена, а бара и формирање општински изборни штабови што ќе функционираат до завршување на претседатлските избори.

Николовски рече дека ВМРО-ДПМНЕ не води битка за власт и за избори, туку за зачувување на името на Македонија.

– Среќни сме со резултатот од референдумот со кој уставното име е зачувано. Ги повикуваме граѓаните да се обединат за заштита на државните интереси и за ставање крај на последните политичари од транзицијата кои ја водат Македонија назад, истакна Николовски.

[Carlin]

DPMNE has gone off the deep end.

[Risto the Great]

Николовски рече дека ВМРО-ДПМНЕ не води битка за власт и за избори, туку за зачувување на името на Македонија.

They did less than nothing. They actively promoted the notion that people should vote on how they feel is the most appropriate for themselves and would not tell anyone what they should do. They are maggots, same shit as SDSm.

[VMRO]

They did less than nothing. They actively promoted the notion that people should vote on how they feel is the most appropriate for themselves and would not tell anyone what they should do. They are maggots, same shit as SDSm.

From what i see, DPNE didn't expect the referendum achieving that result, hence why Mickoski through Nikolovski posting around 11am when the vote was sitting at 2.5% that they will be boycotting.

They look like they're received a rejunevation after being on the sidelines all at the expense of a demoralised Dimitrov, Zaev and wider international community who pumped in time and money to promote national suicide of Macedonia.


They now see this as a wave and they're riding it after preparing to just roll over and die.

[VMRO]

DPMNE has gone off the deep end.

What's your take on all of this, i noticed you follow Macedonian politics quite closely.

[Risto the Great]

From what i see, DPNE didn't expect the referendum achieving that result, hence why Mickoski through Nikolovski posting around 11am when the vote was sitting at 2.5% that they will be boycotting.

They look like they're received a rejunevation after being on the sidelines all at the expense of a demoralised Dimitrov, Zaev and wider international community who pumped in time and money to promote national suicide of Macedonia.


They now see this as a wave and they're riding it after preparing to just roll over and die.

Totally agree.
Now they are simply "sleazing" the opportunity.

[Pelagonija]

Zaev encouraging businessmen in Kriva Palanka to reward people who vote financially

https://www.24.mk/javno-obvinitelstvo-–-registrirani-40-narushuvanja-na-pravoto-na-glas

Кумановското обвинителство собира материјални докази за предметот кој беше оформен по говорот на премиерот Зоран Заев кога за време на кампањата ги повика бизнисмените да го одврзат ќесето и да ги наградат вработените кои ќе излезат да гласаат- велат извори од истрагата за тв 24. Изворите брифираат дека до сега никој не бил повикан на распит. Официјално Обвинителството, не открива повеќе детали

„Се однесува за кривична пријава од две политичките партии и граѓанското здружение за настан во тек на кампањата за говор од премиерот. Кривичната пријава е поднесена до Скопското обвинителство од каде е препратена до ОЈО во Куманово. Предметот е оформен, распределен е кај надлежен јавен обвинител и натаму се постапува на проверка на наводите содржани во кривичната пријава“, вели Џељаљ Бајрами

Пред повеќе од 2 недели, опозициската ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, го обвини Заев дека* за време на кампањата во крива Паланка,* отворено ги повикал бизнисмените со пари да ги мотивираат вработените да гласаат на референдумот.* Од партијата тогаш информираа дека со кривична пријава доставиле и** и видеото од неговиот говор во Крива Паланка.

Презентирајќи го извештајот на Привремената комисија на ЈОРМ,** обвинителот Џељаљ Бајрами истака и дека за време на референдумот биле регистрирани 40 наручувања на правото на глас, од кои 29 само во Скопје.Најголемиот дел од нив според Бајрами биле* расчистени уште истиот ден. Имало и нарушувања на јавниот ред и мир, обиди да се фотографираат гласачки ливчиња.

It

[Pelagonija]

Gwu the "patriot" with the fat wallet is going to Jail.. does this mean Zaev is one seat closer to reaching his 2/3 majority? Jeez Zaev wasn't joking when he said he'd get the 2/3 in parliament. The question is now can dpmne let there sugar daddy go to jail or will they make the deal?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/jail-looms-for-macedonia-s-ex-premier-amid-row-over-name-deal-1.3653268?mode=amp

[Pelagonija]

Interesting article:

- Catolonias referundam had a 42% turn out with %92 voting yes for independence deemed as a failure by the EU.
- MKD referundam had a 37% turn out with %91 for deemed as successful by the EU

https://alfa.mk/референдумска-исклучивост-само-во-м/

I suggest critical thinking training for those who believe in fantasy utopias such as democracy, EU, NATO and the US. These hubs of accumulated wealth are only wealthy because of there exploitation of the rest of the world.

BTW can we get Struga and Kicevo back as 90% voted for in 2004?

[Carlin]

What's your take on all of this, i noticed you follow Macedonian politics quite closely.

I've only been following it in recent months, for obvious reasons.

Zaev got too arrogant, or was too naive/optimistic, and rushed the whole process making a couple of mistakes along the way:
- The bloated/incorrect voter list needed to be reviewed and revised prior to the referendum (probably it was going to take too long so he pressed on regardless)
- He always knew that the turnout would be less than 50%, yet he still pressed on with the process/referendum*
- The "parade" of western leaders to Macedonia providing support and backing gave many people the illusion that the referendum outcome and constitutional changes were all somehow a foregone conclusion

As far as DPMNE goes, one could say they've gone off the deep end a long time ago. I've not seen any corroboration in Macedonian media that would support any of their claims of massive voter fraud and stuffing of ballot boxes. I also disagree with their claims that all those who didn't vote "boycotted" the referendum. The ordinary people in Macedonia, regardless of their ethnic background, have been disillusioned for a long time and many probably didn't vote for the simple reason of being completely cynical or sour about politics/voting in general (this may explain why many people were not very well informed about the name agreement in the first place, as we saw from a couple of earlier articles in this thread - perhaps they coulnd't care less).

Maybe I am completely out to lunch on this one - including all points above - but that's my impression.

PS:

* Zaev knew the turnout would be way less than 50% and so did N. Kotzias, as Zaev relayed this info himself to Kotzias. See this article:

https://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/makedonija/%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0-%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0/

Greece's Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias, said after the referendum on September 30 in an interview with the Greek ERT that they had over-optimistic forecasts regarding the turnout.

- We had information from the Government in Skopje that between 40 and 45 per cent would turn out in the referendum. We, however, thought the turnout would be 41 percent. It turned out that the response was lower than that, Kotzias said.