Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Tomche Makedonche
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2011
    • 1123

    Macedonians must choose between a new name or a future of isolation and instability, Prime Minister Zoran Zaev says.


    Approve name-change or face 'hopelessness': Macedonia PM

    Macedonians must choose between a new name or a future of isolation and instability, Prime Minister Zoran Zaev says.

    He made the remarks ahead of the September 30 referendum on the Macedonia name dispute.

    The proposed change, which would rename the country the Republic of North Macedonia, is Zaev's effort to end a 27-year-old dispute with Greece and usher his Balkan nation into NATO and the European Union.

    Long seen as one of Europe's most stubborn deadlocks, the name row is a tussle over history, identity and land.

    Athens has blocked the former Yugoslav republic from joining NATO and the EU since 1991 because it considers the country's name an encroachment on its own province called Macedonia.

    Greeks also accuse Skopje of appropriating their history and culture, notably by erecting huge monuments to Alexander the Great, the king of ancient Macedon.

    But there was a breakthrough between Zaev and Greek counterpart Alexis Tsipras in July -- a rare detente in a region tangled in complex disagreements.

    Zaev must now convince the country of 2.1 million people to accept the new name despite a widespread feeling that they have been bullied by Greece.

    A pro-Europe politician who helped topple a nationalistic government, Zaev has framed the name-change as a painful but historic opportunity for Macedonia to link arms with the West.

    If the deal unravels, it will mean "hopelessness, total isolation of the country, probably another chapter of insecurity and instability in the whole region", the 43-year-old told AFP after a campaign speech in the western city of Kicevo.

    Alternatively, a 'yes' vote could make the accord a model for other regional disputes, said Zaev, an economist who has sought to revamp Macedonia's foreign relations since coming to power more than one year ago.

    "Other types of identity problems can be solved through deals like this," he said.

    Where's the name?

    Zaev and his Social Democrats party must tread lightly to avoid inflaming nationalists who feel they are being robbed of their identity.

    He has avoided uttering the new name during townhall-style debates around the country.

    "North" is also nowhere to be seen on government billboards that encourage the public to "Go vote for a European Macedonia".

    The referendum question itself asks: "Are you for EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between the Republic of Macedonia and the Republic of Greece?"

    Zaev is trying to reach the majority of Macedonians -- 80 percent, he says -- who want to join those Western institutions.

    But critics have chafed at what they perceive to be a misleading question.

    And while NATO membership is all but assured, the road to the EU will be longer for a country still mired in corruption.

    The appetite for EU enlargement is also shrinking among some members of the bloc, who voted to push Macedonia's accession talks back to June 2019 despite the hard-won deal.

    EU officials and leaders like Angela Merkel have nevertheless been passing through Skopje almost daily to whip up support.

    The Russians, meanwhile, "told me that they have nothing against Macedonia's accession to the EU but that they are opposed to NATO integration", said Zaev.

    #Boycott campaign

    A July survey conducted by the US-funded Center for Insights in Survey Research found 57 percent supported the accord.

    "I am so strongly convinced that the referendum will succeed that I'm not even looking into other options," Zaev told AFP.

    The right-wing opposition, VMRO-DPMNE, has stopped short of advocating a boycott, urging the public instead to act "according to their conscience".

    Civic groups have taken up the torch however, with the hashtag #boycott rippling across social media.

    Zaev said detractors are using "disinformation as a tool" to defeat the proposal.

    The biggest challenge may be generating sufficient turnout in a country where even supporters are only grudgingly in favour of the deal.

    "I don't think it's a fair deal, but I will vote for it," said Sasho Ilioski, 45, because he wanted a chance to join the EU.

    "There is a certain amount of disappointment here, that people will lose a part of their identity, their national pride. They will still vote for this deal, but these feelings cannot be hidden."
    “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

    Comment

    • Gocka
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2012
      • 2306

      "There is a certain amount of disappointment here, that people will lose a part of their identity, their national pride. They will still vote for this deal, but these feelings cannot be hidden."
      That quote right there, perfectly sums up what I have been seeing and hearing for months now, and why I have been convinced that the referendum will succeed even without any intimidations or manipulations.

      Like usual, those who want to make a difference are tone deaf, and more concerned with ego rather than objectively assessing the situation and coming up with a plan that will succeed.

      The boycott movement is nothing more than a lazy and misguided movement that feels content with doing as little as physically possible yet still claiming otherwise, and misguided for assuming that their point of view is in the majority. They are playing a numbers game, where the numbers are against them, but good luck trying to explain that to those involved.

      This has been coming for years and if you didn't see it, then you weren't paying attention. When we first started LOMA, one of our goals was to figure out how to give Macedonians in ROM an alternative future. In the end that is what this comes down to. Every major party in Macedonia has hung their citizens futures on the promise of EU membership. No other investments are alternatives have even been attempted. A small part of me can understand and empathize with the situation. That is the major failure of the diaspora, and activists alike. You can't just be against things with out providing an alternative.

      The honest truth about that shit hole is that their is no alternative on the horizon, not even close. So although I loathe that it has come to this, and I hope to god somehow it doesn't happen, I am also not at all surprised at peoples willingness to go through with this.

      In my point of view, the citizens still bear virtually the entire responsibility for this predicament. They are the ones who constantly voted in politicians that did nothing but back them and their futures into a giant hole. They may very well not have a choice at this juncture, but they put themselves in that position. Having said that, if we really wanted to make a difference, and change something, it was never going to be through preaching the moral high ground or playing on the patriot card. If we really wanted to derail this, it was only going to be by offering up some alternative to the EU. On that front, we don't have much to offer. Our diaspora is not nearly wealthy and connected enough to stimulate their economy and help rebuild the country from abroad. So in the end we are left with nothing buy preaching to deaf ears.

      We tried to convince bojkatiram that they are fighting a losing battle and that if we really want to stop this we need to fight like the minority, but I'm sure you all know what its like trying to deal with Macedonians.

      The only way out of this is to attack this as an aggressive nationalist minority, probably taking over the country by force, and trying to steer it in the right direction from there. But given that our strongest reaction to all this was to act stubborn and just stay home, I wouldn't hold your breathe on a hostile takeover.

      Comment

      • Tomche Makedonche
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2011
        • 1123

        Originally posted by Carlin15 View Post
        Марш „Излези ЗА! европска Македонија” во Скопје

        Со траспарент и беџови „Излези ЗА! европска Македонија”, со македонски и знамиња на ЕУ во Скопје се одржува маршот на поддржувачите на Коалицијата “ЗА европска Македонија”.

        URL:


        Со транспарентот „Излези ЗА! европска Македонија” граѓаните ги предводеа премиерот Зоран Заев, претседателот на Собранието Талат Џафери, министрите Никола Димитров, Радмила Шекеринска и Оливер Спасовски, градоначалникот на Скопје Петре Шилегов.

        Собирот е пред седиштето на Делегацијата на ЕУ во Македонија, а започна со интонирање на македонската химна и на Одата на радоста.

        Во Скопје за маршот организирано со автобуси пристигнаа граѓани од цела Македонија.



        Video from Канал 5 (youtube)


        Update: ФОТО ГАЛЕРИЈА - Огромен број на граѓани излегоа на денешниот “Марш ЗА европска Македонија”
        https://iportal.mk/makedonija/foto-g...ka-makedonija/
        So what is the name being changed to?, North Macedonia? Or European Macedonia?

        Does Zaev even know what he’s backing?, has Dimitrov bothered to tell him what name is on the agreement?, WTF is going on here?, not once did he mention North Macedonia, the only thing I heard was European Macedonia, and that’s even what the banners were saying. Can you get anymore misleading than this?
        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          Originally posted by Gocka View Post
          the referendum will succeed even without any intimidations or manipulations.
          They will cite some half arsed conspiracy theories and watch all this go through without a whimper.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Big Bad Sven
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 1528

            It appears there is a huge media (propaganda push) but certain ‘musicians’ in FYROM, promoting ‘european macedonia’. These ‘stars’ will be playing at government sponsored concerts around the country.

            I find it ironic that some of these ‘musicians’ and ‘stars’ performs classical and patriotic Macedonian folk songs in the past but now have no shame to support zaev and this BS referendum.

            Man, I dream of this referendum failing and these turbo folk hacks having their Macedonian citizenship removed and them being chased out of the country and them all fleeing to Belgrade forever.

            Names of the traitors:
            Violeta Tomovska, Vlado Janeski, Aleksandar Miteski, Gjoko Taneski, Tamara Todeska, Tijana Dapcevic (LOL), Kristina Arnaudova, Beni Shaqiri (LOLOLOLOL) – just to name a ‘few’

            Comment

            • Big Bad Sven
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 1528

              I am confused, i dont even know whats going on anymore.

              The heroes on social media are claiming there are 'reports' that there will be a very low turnout of people coming out to vote in the refferendom - the 'boycot' movement is and will be a success, and then there are 'articles' from 'journalists' from the west predicting that the reffrendum will pass.

              Comment

              • Phoenix
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2008
                • 4671

                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                They will cite some half arsed conspiracy theories and watch all this go through without a whimper.
                Macedonia is ripe for the taking...there’s an over abundance of idiots who really believe that this is their chance for riches and glory that will solve all of their ills...but somehow they will still come out of the other end with their identity and credibility...

                Comment

                • Big Bad Sven
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 1528

                  Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                  Macedonia is ripe for the taking...there’s an over abundance of idiots who really believe that this is their chance for riches and glory that will solve all of their ills...but somehow they will still come out of the other end with their identity and credibility...
                  What i dont get is that a lot of the people who are pushing for this reffrendum to pass are the 'elite' in macedonia. The politicians, the business men, univeristy proffessors, macedonian actors and 'musicias'/pop stars

                  I could probably understand the average macedonian who is on a horrible salary (or no job at all) thinking the EU will magically give them a better life and ticket into the upper middle class. But i still dont get the aganda of the 'elite' in macedonia - it seems like they have amazing lives in macedonia

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                    Macedonia is ripe for the taking...there’s an over abundance of idiots who really believe that this is their chance for riches and glory that will solve all of their ills...but somehow they will still come out of the other end with their identity and credibility...
                    They will indeed be removing some come out the other end soon enough.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Tomche Makedonche
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2011
                      • 1123

                      Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
                      I am confused, i dont even know whats going on anymore.

                      The heroes on social media are claiming there are 'reports' that there will be a very low turnout of people coming out to vote in the refferendom - the 'boycot' movement is and will be a success, and then there are 'articles' from 'journalists' from the west predicting that the reffrendum will pass.
                      That’s because according to the New York Times article I posted in another thread, apparently the US has taken the view to treat this referendum in the form of a “Disinformation” war against Russia, with Congress apparently approving $8 million specifically to fight it.

                      This referendum has become a fake news information battleground between the US and “Russia” (apparently all groups advocating a boycott are fake Implants from Russia, you know like how in the Cold War Russians were hiding everywhere in Americans boxes of cereal ready to jump out, cause apparently, no free thinking person could object to such a wonderful deal). If only Russia knew it was supposed to be participating.
                      “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                      Comment

                      • Risto the Great
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 15658

                        Originally posted by Big Bad Sven View Post
                        What i dont get is that a lot of the people who are pushing for this reffrendum to pass are the 'elite' in macedonia. The politicians, the business men, univeristy proffessors, macedonian actors and 'musicias'/pop stars
                        The "Elite" probably means they can afford the second cheapest VW Golf. I wouldn't read too much into the "elite" people of Macedonia. Not that money is a measure of any person anyway. The average Macedonian will be to blame for all of this either from apathy or active anti-Macedonian attitude.
                        Risto the Great
                        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                        Comment

                        • Pelagonija
                          Member
                          • Mar 2017
                          • 533

                          I’m looking forward to European Macedonia. I can quit my IT job, pack up the bags and move to European Macedonia, get a job and live happily ever after.

                          Comment

                          • Phoenix
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 4671

                            Originally posted by Pelagonija View Post
                            I’m looking forward to European Macedonia. I can quit my IT job, pack up the bags and move to European Macedonia, get a job and live happily ever after.
                            It’s pathetic that a slogan such as ‘European Macedonia’ has gained traction...it’s shows the level of self-loathing amongst those that peddle this particular rubbish...it shows that many are interested in being anything - fyromian, northern, European...anything except plain ol’ macedonia

                            Comment

                            • Stojacanec
                              Member
                              • Dec 2009
                              • 809

                              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                              A few reasons, which just voting No does not suffice.

                              The referendum questions is essentially asking, are you for EU and NATO membership, then qualifying it with, by accepting the Prespa agreement. So no where does it plainly say do you accept a name change. So in that regard it is dishonest.

                              Then there is the means by which the referendum came about. The entire Prespa agreement is unconstitutional and thus invalid. Meaning the referendum itself is unconstitutional and invalid.

                              Based on those first two reasons, even voting in the referendum would constitute legitimizing the whole process that led to the Prespa agreement and thus legitimize the agreement itself. So in principle a boycott is good.

                              Then there is the math problem. Even if everyone who wanted to vote NO did so, it's not a certainty that a majority will vote NO. So by participating and voting NO, you do two things to your own peril. Risk pushing turnout high and legitimizing the process, and you risk losing the actual vote.

                              The only real option here was to note vote, and cause anarchy during the voting process.
                              Yes Gocka thank you for reminding me of the devious, fraudulent and cunning wording of the referendum fashioned by our own people in Zaev and co.

                              Since 2008 it was Europe and America trying to twist the words and dangle the carrot hoping Macedonia capitulates to the greeks. There has been resistance ever since. Now it is our own people and our own so-called leader that is leading the twisted charge.

                              Your right, a boycott is the only way to react to this capitulation. Then who ever wants to go and vote for a new country, constitution and identity they can go and knock themselves out because (Just like the flag) once the name is changed there will be no going back.

                              Comment

                              • Phoenix
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 4671

                                Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                                So what is the name being changed to?, North Macedonia? Or European Macedonia?

                                Does Zaev even know what he’s backing?, has Dimitrov bothered to tell him what name is on the agreement?, WTF is going on here?, not once did he mention North Macedonia, the only thing I heard was European Macedonia, and that’s even what the banners were saying. Can you get anymore misleading than this?
                                There was some other video footage (Minareport) showing bus loads of clowns arriving from all corners of Macedonia to join the treachery in Skopje and the reporter was asking said clowns what they were supporting...all of them responded that they were supporting "European Macedonia", the pathetic thing was that most of them weren't very convincing in their affirmation of their actions, some looked uncomfortable and even embarrassed...when further pressed by the reporter that they were actually supporting a name change they were actually dismissive or they simply refused to answer...it was a disturbing insight into delusion and stupidity...

                                And on another note...notice that the real flag is as rare as hens teeth with these cunts...this lot will sell off everything.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X