Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

Against all odds. The Croats survived. Good luck to them.

[Vangelovski]

Against all odds. The Croats survived. Good luck to them.

Survival requires a willingness to actually fight wars not just virtue signal with #Delcevrollsingrave and then cower like a dog.

[Tomche Makedonche]

EU Declines to commence accession talks with Macedonia, will re-evaluate position in 12 months after more reforms have been met

Macedonia Row: EU delays accession talks, dispute continues over name change deal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCAjMFvZFgQ

https://www.ft.com/content/cf67a85c-...5-50daf11b720d

Macedonia faces 12-month wait for EU accession talks

Delay could complicate approval of deal with Greece over country’s name

Macedonia has won a provisional go-ahead to start talks to join the EU — but faces a year’s wait that could yet threaten a deal with Greece in the two countries’ decades-old naming dispute.

EU ministers struck a compromise on Tuesday after hearing French, Danish and Dutch concerns over Skopje’s record on the rule of law and organised crime.

The conditional agreement to open EU accession negotiations with Macedonia — and its western Balkan neighbour Albania — in June next year sets up a potentially nervous 12 months for the government in Skopje as well as supporters of EU enlargement.

Zoran Zaev, Macedonia’s reformist prime minister, agreed with his Greek counterpart Alexis Tsipras this month that the country would in future be called the Republic of North Macedonia, ending a 27-year old dispute. But the agreement must be ratified by both countries and approved in an autumn referendum in Macedonia, where it faces political opposition.

One EU diplomat supportive of enlargement said the start of accession negotiations would be crucial to locking in the hard-fought accord between Skopje and Athens.

“This is not important, this is absolutely vital,” he said. “It shows that political courage and political vision are rewarded.”

The EU member state formula hammered out in Luxembourg sets out a path “towards opening accession negotiations in June 2019” provided Macedonia “continues making concrete progress” on reforms and delivers further results in the battle against corruption.

An assessment — which will also examine overhauls of the judiciary, security services and public administration — will be based on an annual enlargement progress report, set to be published by the European Commission in April.

Stef Blok, Dutch foreign minister, acknowledged the progress made by Macedonia but said his government would “look carefully” at the commission’s next findings. “It is possible for them to attain the start of accession negotiations,” he said of Skopje’s position. “But they need to make more progress.”

The delay is also a nod to French concerns that an immediate start to enlargement talks would play into the hands of anti-immigrant far-right parties ahead of European elections in May.

As EU foreign and European affairs ministers struggled to reach agreement on Tuesday, Macedonia’s president Gjorge Ivanov refused to sign off on the name deal with Greece. While that is unlikely to prevent ratification, it could cause a delay.

Jasmin Mujanovic, a Balkans political scientist, said that “from a political capital point of view, [prime minister] Zaev would end up in pretty dire straits” if Macedonia were blocked from starting EU talks.

“He has pretty much [staked] his entire government on the idea that in exchange for striking this deal with Greece, Macedonia would be given a clear path towards Nato membership and the EU,” Mr Mujanovic said.

He added that a block could also complicate efforts to get the deal approved in Macedonia’s referendum, which was “always going to come down to the wire”.

James Ker-Lindsay, a Balkans specialist at the London School of Economics, asked on social media: “What are France and Netherlands playing at? With the Macedonia name deal needing all the support it can get, this really is the worst moment possible to be obstructionist. And they must know it. Appalling behaviour.”

LOL at the way some media outlets are trying to portray this as a victory i.e.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...lks-06-27-2018

Macedonia, Albania Hail EU Approval for Accession Talks

Macedonia and Albania have welcomed European ministers’ agreement on a conditional start date of next summer for their long-awaited EU accession talks.

Macedonian and Albanian leaders on Wednesday welcomed the decision by European ministers to give a conditional green light to the start of their EU accession talks.

“There will be sweat, tears and many disappointments but we will succeed!” Macedonian Foreign Minister Nikola Dimitrov wrote on Facebook.

“Now we will climb a mountain road, narrow and steep, marred by rain and ghastly wind, but we will succeed,” he added.

Macedonia’s Prime Minister Zoran Zaev said it was great news for the country and offered a major “motivation” for achieving a “European Macedonia”.

After a long debate at Tuesday's meeting in Luxembourg among the bloc's European affairs ministers, it was decided that Albania and Macedonia’s EU accession talks will start in June next year, depending on certain conditions being fulfilled.

Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama said that "after 72 hours of stormy debate", the decision was a victory.

"This initial skirmish is won, and now the real battle begins," Rama wrote on Twitter.

Albania and Macedonia hope the decision will clear the way for approval by EU leaders at their summit on June 28-29.

EU Enlargement Commissioner Johannes Hahn said after the meeting that the decision was a “key signal to the region that progress is rewarded”.

The decision was also “crucial for the EU's own credibility”, Hahn wrote on Twitter.

While most EU member states supported opening the accession talks immediately, France and The Netherlands opposed the move, saying they first wanted to see Macedonia and Albania sustain their reforms.

The two countries were given several key conditions to meet before starting the talks.

They include judicial reforms, active investigations into and verdicts in high-level corruption cases, reforms to the intelligence and security sectors and public administration reform.

Comment on the fact that the recommendation for Albania and Macedonia will not be as unconditional as they had hoped, Simonida Kacarska, head of the European Policy Institute, a Skopje-based think tank, said that this was down to “France’s insistence that some of these important issues cannot be decided before the European parliament elections set for 2019”, she told Deutsche Welle on Wednesday.

Arguably the most important condition for Macedonia is the implementation of the recent deal with Greece, under which the country should change its name to the Republic of North Macedonia.

In the Balkan region, Greece was the first to join the EU back in 1981. Slovenia came next, in 2004, while Romania and bulgaria followed suit in 2007. Croatia joined in 2013.

Currently, two other states in the region are conducting accession negotiations, Montenegro and Serbia.

That leaves only Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo, which hs unresolved status issues with neighbouring Serbia – and with five EU states that have not recognised its independence.

[Tomche Makedonche]

If this isn't enough evidence for the people in the Republic to riot against the government and the name change agreement, then that is all the proof anyone needs that the battle for the minds in the Republic is already lost.

The EU declined them despite them agreeing to change the name and surrendering their sovereignty to Greece.

That is all the convincing any objective and reasonable person needs.

[Phoenix]

James Ker-Lindsay, a Balkans specialist at the London School of Economics, asked on social media: “What are France and Netherlands playing at? With the Macedonia name deal needing all the support it can get, this really is the worst moment possible to be obstructionist. And they must know it. Appalling behaviour.”

EU members being obstructionist...this dickhead sounds like it's the first time he's seen this shit

[Risto the Great]

Hi Macedonia. Would you mind changing your name? What if we talk about starting talks about starting to talk about letting you in the EU. Wow, thanks North Macedonia. You guys are tops!

[Gocka]

There is a common misconception that the EU and NATO are one in the same. They always get lumped together because everyone assumes there is complete solidarity and understanding between the US (NATO) and the EU (Europe). The reality is that even though the same partners are part of both unions, the goals and priorities are very different.

The US has always been a strong supporter for Macedonia to join NATO for a number of reasons. The biggest to further surround Russia, but also to tie the region together militarily in hopes to reduce the chances of future conflicts. There is also the fact that the US sells the majority of military hardware to the union. The US doesn't care if Macedonia changes its name one way or another, it is ready to admit Macedonia into NATO regardless. Someone said it before, they support what we do either way. We are the ones who said we are going to negotiate so they support it, we said we are going to change our name and they support it. If we ended negotiations and made it clear that we are never doing a name change, they would support it and we would still get into NATO if we wanted to.

The truth is the EU doesn't want Macedonia to join for a host of reasons. Economically they have nothing to gain from Macedonia. Small population, no industry, no natural resources, no ports, no sea. On top of that they know that by admitting Macedonia they are also admitting Albania and Kosovo. How many people from those two countries will get Macedonian citizenship in order to gain EU access? They already have problems with Albanian crime organizations. The EU never thought we would get this far i the negotiations, and alas, as soon as we come close to ending that "issue", they start walking things back and covering their ass. Quietly behind closed doors, they are hoping this fails.

It is is the sad truth that Macedonians want so badly to be part of a clique that looks down upon them and considers them as useless second class citizens. Macedonians pathetically just keep trying to impress, not realizing there is virtually no chance of EU entry anyway. We are literally that college dork who does humiliating initiations to be part of a frat, only to be videotaped and later shamed for the rest of his college years. Its pathetic!

The EU is playing a very dangerous game here. The potential for destabilization is huge if the name change goes through and Macedonia is till denied EU entry. What makes the situation even more frightening is that the EU and the US are clearly having a falling out which means the US will have very little influence on the matter. The US was/is much more supportive of Macedonia than the EU ever was/will be. The US was also the one who holds Europeans stability as a top priority, apparently the EU doesn't. What I worry about is if and when this circus collapses, it will open the door to both Russia and the US, which is a very dangerous for our well being. The last thing we need is to be in the middle of an influence/proxy war.

[Tomche Makedonche]

The Dutch seem to be telling it straight

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2018/0...dy-for-the-eu/

Dutch tell Albania and Macedonia they are not yet ready for the EU

The Netherlands will not support EU accession talks for Albania and Macedonia because it is still too early to begin negotiations with the two Balkan states, foreign minister Stef Blok said on Tuesday.

Speaking during a meeting of EU ministers in Luxembourg, Blok said he hoped accession would be possible one day.

However, before this could happen, Blok said he wanted to see progress in terms of the rule of law and the battle against corruption. ‘These are extremely important issues,’ the minister said.

The European Commission in April proposed starting talks with both aspiring EU members, saying enough progress had been made in dealing with corruption and crime.

However, at Tuesday’s meeting, foreign ministers agreed to delay the start to any talks until next year.

Albanian nationals living in the Netherlands have been campaigning to get Dutch support for the accession talks.

Some 800 people signed a petition asking the Netherlands to vote in favour. ‘This
will have positive implications for all Albanians, including those who live and contribute to the Dutch society,’ the petition said.

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-macedonia-albania-accession-talks-the-eu-never-fails-to-disappoint/a-44419057

Opinion: Macedonia, Albania accession talks – The EU never fails to disappoint

France and the Netherlands have sacrificed the EU's credibility in the Balkans, punishing Macedonia and Albania in order to appease populists. It's a dangerous and shortsighted move, says DW's Boris Georgievski

An EU candidate country since 2005 and recommended for accession negotiations nine times, Macedonia has never been spared humiliation and disappointment in its relations with the European Union.

For almost a decade Greece blocked the Balkan country over the name dispute. Now that the dispute is nearing an end, the future North Macedonia rightfully hoped to receive its just reward. But the EU managed to disappoint the country once again. Instead of recommending a date to start the accession negotiations as promised, the EU has announced it will "set out a path towards opening accession negotiations in June 2019." The same fate befell Albania, Macedonia's western Balkan neighbor.

Victims of EU politics

Both Macedonia and Albania are victims of internal EU disagreements: France and the Netherlands wanted to postpone the European Commission's plan for negotiations mainly because of their own internal political considerations. And although French President Emmanuel Macron for his part has argued that the EU shouldn't accept more members before carrying out its own internal reforms, EU officials have indicated Macron is actually afraid that French populists and right-wing movements would use accession to drum up fears of migration from Eastern Europe.

The governments in Skopje and Tirana, as well as the European Commission, tried to put a positive spin on the decision, praising it as historical, but it would take an enormous effort to find much to celebrate.

After years of up-and-down politics towards the Western Balkans, the European Commission finally found a consistent instrument to keep the region aligned and committed to peaceful transition and reforms: the carrot-and-stick approach. The EU will deliver full EU membership, investments in infrastructure and know-how, plus access to the EU market in exchange for judicial reforms, steady improvements to the market economy, as well as anti-crime and anti-corruption measures.

But instead of sticking to its principles and promises, the EU has decided – once again – to ignore them.

Baseless arguments

France and the Netherlands have basically decided to sacrifice the EU's credibility and reliability in the region, punishing Macedonia and Albania despite the fact that they did what was asked of them, in order to somehow appease the far-right.

Furthermore, Macron's argument that the EU is too weak for further enlargement is baseless since the countries would not join the EU anytime soon, anyway. Even if both countries began accession negotiations tomorrow, they wouldn't be able to become full members before at least 2025, giving the EU more than enough time to consolidate, reform or even fall apart.

Sacrificing EU credibility will harm the region

It's hard to say whether the decision taken in Luxembourg would appease the populist forces in France or the Netherlands, but it will certainly send shivers down the spines of the pro-EU forces in the Balkans. Willingly or not, the EU just gave a new impetus to the nationalist, pro-Russian and pro-Turkish forces in the region, the same ones that Brussels was apparently ready to confront and neutralize.

The decision threatens to make life especially difficult for the new reformist government in Macedonia. On June 17, Macedonia and Greece signed a historic agreement to end the decadeslong name dispute by changing Macedonia's name to North Macedonia. Faced with daily protests by the nationalist forces and strong resistance from the main opposition party, the promise of EU integration was one of the most important incentives for the government in Skopje to sign the agreement and "sell it" to the suspicious domestic public. The delay to EU talks once again puts into question not only the future of the historic agreement, but also the stability of the whole region.

In a speech at the Sorbonne last year, French President Macron talked about a united Europe and ironically put the blame for the growing euroskepticism on the leaders he criticized as too guarded to confront public opinion and lay out a clear vision. Nobody can really be sure what Macron's European vision holds, but it's evident that he was the first one who pulled out from confronting public opinion in his country when it mattered.

[Big Bad Sven]

There is a common misconception that the EU and NATO are one in the same. They always get lumped together because everyone assumes there is complete solidarity and understanding between the US (NATO) and the EU (Europe). The reality is that even though the same partners are part of both unions, the goals and priorities are very different.

The US has always been a strong supporter for Macedonia to join NATO for a number of reasons. The biggest to further surround Russia, but also to tie the region together militarily in hopes to reduce the chances of future conflicts. There is also the fact that the US sells the majority of military hardware to the union. The US doesn't care if Macedonia changes its name one way or another, it is ready to admit Macedonia into NATO regardless. Someone said it before, they support what we do either way. We are the ones who said we are going to negotiate so they support it, we said we are going to change our name and they support it. If we ended negotiations and made it clear that we are never doing a name change, they would support it and we would still get into NATO if we wanted to.

The truth is the EU doesn't want Macedonia to join for a host of reasons. Economically they have nothing to gain from Macedonia. Small population, no industry, no natural resources, no ports, no sea. On top of that they know that by admitting Macedonia they are also admitting Albania and Kosovo. How many people from those two countries will get Macedonian citizenship in order to gain EU access? They already have problems with Albanian crime organizations. The EU never thought we would get this far i the negotiations, and alas, as soon as we come close to ending that "issue", they start walking things back and covering their ass. Quietly behind closed doors, they are hoping this fails.

It is is the sad truth that Macedonians want so badly to be part of a clique that looks down upon them and considers them as useless second class citizens. Macedonians pathetically just keep trying to impress, not realizing there is virtually no chance of EU entry anyway. We are literally that college dork who does humiliating initiations to be part of a frat, only to be videotaped and later shamed for the rest of his college years. Its pathetic!

The EU is playing a very dangerous game here. The potential for destabilization is huge if the name change goes through and Macedonia is till denied EU entry. What makes the situation even more frightening is that the EU and the US are clearly having a falling out which means the US will have very little influence on the matter. The US was/is much more supportive of Macedonia than the EU ever was/will be. The US was also the one who holds Europeans stability as a top priority, apparently the EU doesn't. What I worry about is if and when this circus collapses, it will open the door to both Russia and the US, which is a very dangerous for our well being. The last thing we need is to be in the middle of an influence/proxy war.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head In regards the EU (I cant realty comment on NATO but seems like you know what you are talking about).
Unfortunately both Macedonia and Albania have ‘married’ futures. I guess in the eyes of the EU they see Macedonia and Albania almost the same, well, Macedonia is pretty much a Albanian vassal state anyway. It wouldn’t surprise me if the regular ignorant European thinks Macedonia is Albanian with all of the ugly Albanian flags and mosques everywhere LOL

Like Gocka said the EU knows if they let Macedonia in they let a lot of Albanians from fyrom in, and that with a bit of dirty Balkan money a lot of shiptars from Kosovo or Albania can magically acquire Northern Macedonian passports.

The pendulum is swinging right in both Europe and the USA, people are being nationalist and patriotic. The EU doesn’t want any more muslims and ‘non-whites’ in Europe, and unfortunately Macedonians are lumped in this group (in Europe’s eyes anyways).

Poor Northern Macedonians, always late to the party. They went ultra left and ultra progressive thinking they can join their precious little European club only to be rejected by the right and nationalistic Europe LOL.

I wonder what those progressive northern Macedonians are feeling now while sipping their Turkish coffee and listening to turbo folk on the beaches of Greece? Was it really worth it TO give up your name, identity, language and even ancient heroes – only to have the EU door shut right in front of your face?

Greece has one EVERYTHING from this, FYROM/Northern Macedonia is pretty much FINISHED

[Big Bad Sven]

Apparently MK Government wants Marijana Petir out of the EP Friends of Macedonia group because she's conservative and supports our side in the name talks, calling out Zaev for his concessions to Greece and saying how harmful his deal with Tsipras is.

lol at the corrupt yugo commies trying to kick her out, becasue of her good intentions and being pro macedonian and anti Northern Macedonia.

Yeah i have been seeing a lot of good things about her on facebook. Also Victor Orban from Hungary is a big supporter of macedonia and against the name change.

Its strange that macedonians biggest supporters against the name change are outside Norther Macedonia. You would be lucky to count the good macedonian politicians on one hand (and thats starting from independence until now)

[Gocka]

So in a best case scenario Macedonia if it started immediately would take 7 years to become a member. Based on anything we know about Macedonia and Macedonians can anyone say with a straight face that we could do it in a best case scenario? So really if we started today it would take 10 yeas, now factor in that they will string us along for at least 2-5 more years before even letting us start. So realistically Macedonia isn't joining fully for 15 years.

Wait until that reality hits our instant gratification loving North Macedonians. They think they are instantly going to get richer, wait until 10 plus years go by and everything is exactly the same.

There is no way that this whole saga ends with a good result for Macedonia.

On top of all that, who is willing to put their money on the EU even existing in its current form in 15 years anyway? The EU is one recession away from tearing itself apart, and based on historical trends we are due for a recession any day now.

[Tomche Makedonche]

There is a common misconception that the EU and NATO are one in the same. They always get lumped together because everyone assumes there is complete solidarity and understanding between the US (NATO) and the EU (Europe). The reality is that even though the same partners are part of both unions, the goals and priorities are very different.

The US has always been a strong supporter for Macedonia to join NATO for a number of reasons. The biggest to further surround Russia, but also to tie the region together militarily in hopes to reduce the chances of future conflicts. There is also the fact that the US sells the majority of military hardware to the union. The US doesn't care if Macedonia changes its name one way or another, it is ready to admit Macedonia into NATO regardless. Someone said it before, they support what we do either way. We are the ones who said we are going to negotiate so they support it, we said we are going to change our name and they support it. If we ended negotiations and made it clear that we are never doing a name change, they would support it and we would still get into NATO if we wanted to.

The truth is the EU doesn't want Macedonia to join for a host of reasons. Economically they have nothing to gain from Macedonia. Small population, no industry, no natural resources, no ports, no sea. On top of that they know that by admitting Macedonia they are also admitting Albania and Kosovo. How many people from those two countries will get Macedonian citizenship in order to gain EU access? They already have problems with Albanian crime organizations. The EU never thought we would get this far i the negotiations, and alas, as soon as we come close to ending that "issue", they start walking things back and covering their ass. Quietly behind closed doors, they are hoping this fails.

It is is the sad truth that Macedonians want so badly to be part of a clique that looks down upon them and considers them as useless second class citizens. Macedonians pathetically just keep trying to impress, not realizing there is virtually no chance of EU entry anyway. We are literally that college dork who does humiliating initiations to be part of a frat, only to be videotaped and later shamed for the rest of his college years. Its pathetic!

The EU is playing a very dangerous game here. The potential for destabilization is huge if the name change goes through and Macedonia is till denied EU entry. What makes the situation even more frightening is that the EU and the US are clearly having a falling out which means the US will have very little influence on the matter. The US was/is much more supportive of Macedonia than the EU ever was/will be. The US was also the one who holds Europeans stability as a top priority, apparently the EU doesn't. What I worry about is if and when this circus collapses, it will open the door to both Russia and the US, which is a very dangerous for our well being. The last thing we need is to be in the middle of an influence/proxy war.

There are many views people subscribe to when talking about what NATO and the EU are all about and many views can carry valid points of reasoning. If I was to try and sum up in one sentence what I personally opine to be NATO’s and the EU’s primary purpose, it would probably be something like the following:


NATO: is about the US’s continuous pursuit of securing military dominance against its closest competitors.

EU: is about the dominant western European nations safeguarding their own economies by mitigating and managing the adverse impacts emerging economies of developing European nations (and regions) pose on them.


The purpose of each organisation is completely separate and distinct from each other and the entities are in no way related, they don’t even operate in the same spheres as each other. They do however both aim to dominate the competition in their respective spheres of operation.

Although the primary driver behind this latest push derives from the self interest’s of the Republic’s political elites, as well as their supporters and the citizenry in general, as I have previously conveyed, when it comes to any outside influence assisting with the current push, in my opinion, any external “encouragement” would be primarily related to NATO. For whatever reason, NATO has decided that it would benefit its interests to officially and undeniably tick off this little box on its long list of objectives. Possibly due to the environmental and situational convenience it finds itself in at this point in time, particularly with Russia becoming more relevant in recent US politics.

As for the EU, it has and still is already achieving its primary interests and objectives with the status quo. It therefore has no intention or interest in changing that status for the immediate future as there is no current benefit for it to do so.

So in summary, Macedonia is basically willingly surrendering its name, identity, history and sovereignty to Greece (essentially accepting Greek Authority over the country) all so that the US can place an official green tick in one of its little boxes (in its long, long, long list of bigger boxes) where, for all intents and purposes, an unofficial green tick has been for the last 20 years.

[Tomche Makedonche]

The main selling point the political elites are shoving down the throats of the Republic’s citizens to obtain the support needed to get this across – EU Entry – is an absolute lie, a charade, misdirection, smoke and mirrors, the carrot in this scenario is essentially an illusion. If the recent decline to commence accession talks by the EU doesn’t wake them up to this fact, then nothing will.

The fact that needs to be drummed into the heads of the people in the Republic right now for their deliberation is the following:

Zaev offered to surrender your name, identity, history and sovereignty to Greece (essentially accepting Greek Authority over your country) for the promise to commence accession talks with the EU.

The EU still declined to commence accession talks despite this because it believes Zaev’s government, institutions and courts are too corrupt.

Let that sink in, and while you're doing that, ask yourself why you should continue to give Zaev your support

[Phoenix]

The main selling point the political elites are shoving down the throats of the Republic’s citizens to obtain the support needed to get this across – EU Entry – is an absolute lie, a charade, misdirection, smoke and mirrors, the carrot in this scenario is essentially an illusion. If the recent decline to commence accession talks by the EU doesn’t wake them up to this fact, then nothing will.

The fact that needs to be drummed into the heads of the people in the Republic right now for their deliberation is the following:

Zaev offered to surrender your name, identity, history and sovereignty to Greece (essentially accepting Greek Authority over your country) for the promise to commence accession talks with the EU.

The EU still declined to commence accession talks despite this because it believes Zaev’s government, institutions and courts are too corrupt.

Let that sink in, and while you're doing that, ask yourself why you should continue to give Zaev your support

Zaev is a mythomaniac, a first class bullshit artist that shouldn't run a used car yard, let alone a country...this despicable cunt has sold an entire country in exchange for NOTHING...zero net gain.

On one hand you've got this useless cunt Zaev doing his utmost to destroy everything to get into NATO and the EU but all of this has to be looked at in the present context...what happens in the future is anybodies guess, if you're making deals with the farken greeks who you wouldn't trust in a fair exchange of shiny plastic beads, let alone your identity.

What guarantees has this dickhead Zaev got from anybody that a new racist greek government after the next elections keeps its word and doesn't just tear up the agreement and dreams ups another ridiculous excuse for excluding Macedonia...they've done it before, they'll readily do it again and again...