Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Daskalot]

I'm not sure how many are aware of this, but in 2001 there were almost 1,000 Macedonian men from Australia (Melbourne) who gathered, with the intent of going to Macedonia to fight.

The Macedonian Govnerment was the one that didn't want them and rejected them, because it did not want an international incident with Australian citizens, and because it was calling up its soldiers, not all reserves, etc.

In other words, they didn't need or want the Macedonians from Australia (most of whom had only army training from their conscription over 20 years ago during Yugoslavia).

Interesting information, Rogi do you have a reference of this, a newspaper clipping or the like?

[Jankovska]

I'm not sure how many are aware of this, but in 2001 there were almost 1,000 Macedonian men from Australia (Melbourne) who gathered, with the intent of going to Macedonia to fight.

The Macedonian Govnerment was the one that didn't want them and rejected them, because it did not want an international incident with Australian citizens, and because it was calling up its soldiers, not all reserves, etc.

In other words, they didn't need or want the Macedonians from Australia (most of whom had only army training from their conscription over 20 years ago during Yugoslavia).

Why didn't they go than and maybe help differentley, help by being there? That is all well and nice Rogi but it is said in 2009 and I don't believe it very much. I do believe there were the odd few but this is sounds a bit to Macedonian, a be ja ke se tepase ama ne mi dadea. In 2001 I packed my little bags from London and went back home where my family are, thinking that this is my home and I will not sit and watch the BBC show me pictures of my country burning while I am enjoying the confort in the UK. I didn't fight but I would have.I didn't ask our goverment for permission. I took a small part in a Red Cross action but mostly I supported people around me.
Maybe if those 1000 people came back to Macedonia, even if they didn't fight the Macedonians would know that they were willing to. Saying it from OZ is a bit far streched

[Giorikas]

Moron, you are a racist, we both know this, you deny the right of another people to identify as they choose, so who's the little girl? I can live my life without denying your identity, you have to bitch about mine, you north-south compass Otto Hellenoidiot.

Your people didn't identify themselves as Greeks or Hellenes before their state was created by foreigners in the 19th century, Serbs are as 'Greek' as you, they too are from the 'Greek Church'. But that term means nothing to them in the real world. Just as the Macedonian term means nothing to modern Greeks in the real world. However, let's say, for arguments sake, that the Serbs chose to behave like idiots and deny the modern Greeks their name as it was a name used to refer to all Orthodox people.

Would you accept somebody else denying your people the right to identify as they choose? It doesn't matter what your reasons and responses are, nobody has the right to supress the identity of another people. What Greece is doing is racist, and what you are doing makes you a racist piece of scum, or a blind and stupid sheep.

Hmm. Greece says, you're all Greek if you hold the Greek nationality. We don't differentiate nazi style into 1st class ethnic Greeks and second class non ethnic Greek. Apart from that of course, it's a bit tricky identifying as ethnic pure, no matter what ethnicity you claim. Especially in the Balkans. How do you know how ethnically pure you really are ..

For the rest Greece's position is, feel whatever you want to, and by all means, organise yourselves through political parties if you want to change that. (and the odd 5,000 votes is not that impressive either)But we're not distinguishing according to 'ethnic' lines. Now how is that racist ? It's the opposite. I guess you prefer the Nazi way. And indeed I noticed the support from ... a nazi.

Now to cut a long story short. You're time after time asking, demanding even, that Greece changes that policy. Even making a link to the current negotiations as if you have a right to ask something back. But you should by now know that that will never happen. And let's be honest; who are you and the likes of Risto the Great exactly to make such demands. You're not even voting in Macedonia. You're Australian internet warriors identifying as Macedonians who achieved NOTHING. (or do you actually hold a Macedonian passport ?, in that case you are at least a Macedonian national)
But prove me wrong. What did you actually achieve in all this years ?

[Giorikas]

Why do we need another differentiation then what is already have Giorikas?

Are you also the "Republic" of Macedonia, because we all know that the word Macedonia is really not a problem for you, it has been included in most proposals thus far, so why do you have a problem with the prefix "Republic"?

I am sticking to the rules of this forum which require that I use the name Macedonia. It doesn't matter what I think of it.
Since I believe that eventually there will be a negotiated name that will include Macedonia, I am already preparing myself for that . I hope I will be allowed to use the new name that will be acceptable by your and my country.

[Rogi]

Maybe you are right Jankovska.

Quite a few Macedonians did help though, as individuals and in their individual ways (contacting media, or sending money to their village leaders to buy whatever they need to defend themselves, etc etc).

But because of our disorganised state at the time as a community, the effect and contribution was very limited and went very unnoticed.

[Jankovska]

Maybe you are right Jankovska.

Quite a few Macedonians did help though, as individuals and in their individual ways (contacting media, or sending money to their village leaders to buy whatever they need to defend themselves, etc etc).

But because of our disorganised state at the time as a community, the effect and contribution was very limited and went very unnoticed.

I know, it's a shame. We have a big Diaspora it just seems we find it hard to organise ourselves. Things are looking better, we have the UMD and few other organisations. We need a good strong one in Europe now. We'll get there

[Rogi]

UMD in France is coming along well and slowly building up a base.
Belgium, UK and Germany are starting up slowly but surely. Then there's Austria not far behind.

Russia and Ukraine are already up and active.

[Giorikas]

They are traitors.

The Macedonian people had their say in September, 1991. Its done, finished.

Through the Act of negotiating, individuals in this government are undermining the Macedonian people's right to self determination, the democratic process, and our soveriegnty.

Why did not 1 of your governments ever pull out of those negotiations ? That would be the end of it. Do they know something more then the real experts like yourselves ?

[Daskalot]

I am sticking to the rules of this forum which require that I use the name Macedonia. It doesn't matter what I think of it.
Since I believe that eventually there will be a negotiated name that will include Macedonia, I am already preparing myself for that . I hope I will be allowed to use the new name that will be acceptable by your and my country.

Surely it does matter what you think otherwise I would have never asked you

So what is the trouble with "Republic" because that seems to be the most vital part of the name issue here, your side always try to include something in between it and Macedonia, so surely the matter at hand is not the name Macedonia but rather the fact that we are a Republic, please shed some light on this from your point of view.

[Daskalot]

UMD in France is coming along well and slowly building up a base.
Belgium, UK and Germany are starting up slowly but surely. Then there's Austria not far behind.

Russia and Ukraine are already up and active.

What about the Nordic countries like Sweden, Denmark and Norway??
Is the UMD represented over there?

[Giorikas]

Republic or not is irrelevant for me. Maybe I like the Republic of Macedonia better then plain Macedonia, but that's details. In the end your or my opinion on that have zero impact. We're both nothing when it concerns this process.

Being brainwashed and all (even though I never went through the Greek educational system) it's the Macedonia part that bothers me more. But realistically, the new name will definately have Macedonia in it. Since you ask my opinion.. It's not even the fact that Macedonia will be included, it's more the blabla à la Gruevski that gets on my Greek nerves. If that part could be somehow muted, and properly explained, then I think it would take the angle out for a large part.

I refer to a recent TV interview on A2 TV station with ex-Prime Minister Ljubco Georgievski who made some very accurate statements. But ok, we can't discuss about that here. That would be illegal. Never mind that this is only your ex-PM and founder of VMRO-DPNME. Let me guess, the normal reaction here should be that he is a 'sell out'. Some things are very predictable.

[Risto the Great]

Jankovska, I am not sure it was described as a war in 2001.
Macedonia has had successive Governments that despise its Diaspora. "Nationalist fools" is a term I think they like to use for us. Meanwhile, they were at the time very much unable to shake of their communist upbringing. They felt like victims and wanted to go and cry to mother Jugoslavia for some comfort. They did not want our help, I can vouch for this.

During this time our local community raised money and donated funds directly to Macedonians in the troubled region. Only after verifying the effected people were not ethnic Albanians who pretended to be Macedonians. (And quite a few were)

So, I resent the suggestion that the Diaspora did nothing. In fact, the opposite was true but the Government was pushing us away very clearly. They gave the impression that they knew what they were doing. Instead they sold the country ... which was most likely what they hoped to achieve for personal gain.

This is why I get extremely annoyed at the UMD playing into the hands of the Government of Macedonia by giving them unearned respect. The Macedonian Diaspora (not UMD) clearly thinks the Government needs to be held accountable for anything which undermines the Macedonian identity. If the Government cannot be clear on its stance, the Macedonian Diaspora along with the people of Macedonia should bleed it out of them.

If the Macedonians in the Republic in 2001 were not so damn apathetic and of such a victim mentality, Macedonia would be years ahead of where it is now. Is that the Diaspora's fault?

Don't forget the Diaspora is full of people like me ... Egejci. What has the Republic done for me to welcome me? I have no knowledge of Serbian oppression whatsoever, I have a family history of Greek oppression. I should be excited about going to Macedonia so I can celebrate my Macedonian identity. What are the successive Governments doing about the Macedonian identity? I accept that an identity can change and evolve over time, however, it appears that poor baby Macedonia has been left to be raised by dogs like that poor little Russian girl.

Is the Republic too smart to listen to advice from its Diaspora ... apparently so. If I changed my name to Chris Miller and pretended to be a USA diplomat, they would drop their pants immediately.

Victims who need to grow balls .... it will be the name for Macedonia that I will lobby for if they ever sellout my identity. "VWN2GB"

[Soldier of Macedon]

He is a sellout, and a lying, manipulative fool. You share these characteristics. His comments were nowhere near accurate except for a baboon racist like yourselves, in which case it is music to the ears.

We don't differentiate nazi style into 1st class ethnic Greeks and second class non ethnic Greek.

That is because in Greece the racists use census results based on religion yet paint these people as 'ethnic' Greeks to the rest of the world. Who are you trying to kid, you people are the biggest xenophobic idiots in the Balkans and probably the world, your census is testament to that, 99% Greek, 98% Greek, 97% Greek, whatever, you people are falisifying liars and the brainchild of Nazi ancestors and their mindset. Your racist state doesn't even allow its ethnic minorities to declare themselves openly, news for you moron, there ARE Macedonians and not "Greek Slavs", there ARE Turks and not "Greek Muslims", you can never win this argument, and the more you try, the more of an idiot racist you appear to be. True to form.

But we're not distinguishing according to 'ethnic' lines. Now how is that racist ? It's the opposite. I guess you prefer the Nazi way. And indeed I noticed the support from ... a nazi.

Hang on a second - You will not allow the people of Greece to freely express their identity in full recognition and YOU FORCE them to have only one identity, while I on the other hand am advocating the freedom of expression of identity for the minorities of Greece - Who is the NAZI YOU RACIST XENOPHOBE?

I am not the internet warrior who slithers his way into a Macedonian forum and pretends to be 'objective' while at the same time unable to keep his racist filth on ice. Now answer my previous question you racist little prick,

Your people didn't identify themselves as Greeks or Hellenes before their state was created by foreigners in the 19th century, Serbs are as 'Greek' as you, they too are from the 'Greek Church'. But that term means nothing to them in the real world. Just as the Macedonian term means nothing to modern Greeks in the real world. However, let's say, for arguments sake, that the Serbs chose to behave like idiots and deny the modern Greeks their name as it was a name used to refer to all Orthodox people.

Would you accept somebody else denying your people the right to identify as they choose? It doesn't matter what your reasons and responses are, nobody has the right to supress the identity of another people. What Greece is doing is racist, and what you are doing makes you a racist piece of scum, or a blind and stupid sheep.

Would you accept somebody else denying your people the right to identify as they choose?

[Giorikas]

He is a sellout, and a lying, manipulative fool. You share these characteristics. His comments were nowhere near accurate except for a baboon racist like yourselves, in which case it is music to the ears.

That is because in Greece the racists use census results based on religion yet paint these people as 'ethnic' Greeks to the rest of the world. Who are you trying to kid, you people are the biggest xenophobic idiots in the Balkans and probably the world, your census is testament to that, 99% Greek, 98% Greek, 97% Greek, whatever, you people are falisifying liars and the brainchild of Nazi ancestors and their mindset. Your racist state doesn't even allow its ethnic minorities to declare themselves openly, news for you moron, there ARE Macedonians and not "Greek Slavs", there ARE Turks and not "Greek Muslims", you can never win this argument, and the more you try, the more of an idiot racist you appear to be. True to form.

Hang on a second - You will not allow the people of Greece to freely express their identity in full recognition and YOU FORCE them to have only one identity, while I on the other hand am advocating the freedom of expression of identity for the minorities of Greece - Who is the NAZI YOU RACIST XENOPHOBE?

I am not the internet warrior who slithers his way into a Macedonian forum and pretends to be 'objective' while at the same time unable to keep his racist filth on ice. Now answer my previous question you racist little prick,


Would you accept somebody else denying your people the right to identify as they choose?

He is someone who actually has the Macedonian nationality, actually lived there, and has achieved something politically. Unlike you in all cases. Who should I believe, you or him. By default everybody who does not agree with your views is a racist, a sell out, or paid off. The same old record over and over again. That's a very simplistic view.

Now answering your kindly asked question since I'm in a good mood. My identity is something that comes from within. I know what I am, and I don't really care what someone else might think of that. If I would be Greek holding an Albanian passport for example, then I really wouldn't care how the Albanian state considers me. After all there are always choices,I can leave and live somewhere else (like Greece) and give up my Albanian nationality. Now you seem to have difficulties to grasp the idea that Greece does not distinguish along ethnic lines, but that that doesn't matter. It's irrelevant anyway and it will not become an agenda point. Haven't you realized that by now? The only relevant question is what the future name is going to be of ROM. (with maybe a few stipulations added that some of those crazy kids on the other side of he border can not make any implicit or explicit territorial claims anymore).

Now answer my question Mr. Internet warrior. What did you achieve all these years, making all these silly demands as if you actually have any power to make demands. The opposite has happened, all seems to point towards a name compromise, which you will probably consider a defeat.

[Risto the Great]

Giorikas, all of Greece's actions have galvanised Macedonia. Don't you realise that Greece is Macedonia's best friend simply because its demands have been so utterly unreasonable that Macedonia has had no choice but to stand up and fight. You believe what you want, but Macedonia has never been more sure about this issue and Greece simply does not have a chance. What people like SoM (including myself) have done is express the will of Macedonians from around the world. this will is measured .... often. And it augurs well.

Whilst people like you even believe even believe the motley crew of ethnicities that (80 years ago) were shipped in from Turkey can be called Macedonians. The real Macedonians know who they are and don't need people with hidden agendas denying their identity.