Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Karposh]

8000 Macedonians went to Halkidiki just today, a lot more than what any protest can attract

https://sitel.com.mk/nad-8000-makedo...-gp-bogorodica

I read about the same thing in the Australian Macedonian Weekly the other day. The headlines read "Imeto ne go davame, ama djebovite ke im gi polnime" & "Ni sporot so imeto, ni protestite ne se prechka za odmor vo Grcija"

[Karposh]

Barely understandable, but definitely a first.

I think he did alright, all things considered. A bit broken but not too bad. He used a couple of terms, which I used to call Bulgarian terms, but now know better - Vsichko and koeto? (I now realise that these are dialectal terms and not necessarily Bulgarian).

"Prijateli od Republika Severna Makedonija, kako se razbravme, vreme e da ostavime nazad vsichko koeto ne razdelija i da vidime (gledame) napred. Ova koeto za idnoto [unclear but could be prijatelstvo] a ushte za [unclear but sounds like he's trying to say dobrososedstvo]

I read a couple of the comments below. I'm not sure if the first one was sarcastic or not when he asked "Why is he still alive"? The other comment "MP SYRIZA speaks Slavic in the Greek Parliament"! Wonder if the agreement will ever hold the Greeks to refer to our language as Macedonian?

[Carlin]

еве што точно кажа Грчкиот пратеник:

– Пријатели од Северна Македонија, както се разбрахме, време е да оставиме назад всичко които не разделја и да видим напред това което е заимнето пријателство и сотрудничевство и љубовта.

URL:

https://republika.mk/927927

[Niko777]

A Greek citizen with a Macedonian conscious was arrested in Prespa today by Greek police for talking in the Macedonian language with Macedonian journalists

Pavlos Voskopoulos: Να σας πω φρέσκα νέα από τα μέρη μας όπου εξακολουθούν "ανύπαρκτοι" να είναι υπό "πίεση";

Λοιπόν πριν λίγες ώρες στη περιοχή Πρεσπών αρχίζουν οι προετοιμασίες για την υπογραφή της Συμφωνίας ανάμεσα σε Ελλάδα και Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας.

Ξεκινούν εργασίες στο χωριό Ψαράδες (Nivici) που είναι δίπλα στη Μεγάλη Πρέσπα για να στηθούν εξέδρες κλπ. υποδομές για την εκδήλωση. Δημοσιογράφοι από τη γειτονική χώρα που ήρθαν λογικά για την εκδήλωση, γνώρισαν κατοίκους και ξεκίνησε μικρός διάλογος ανάμεσα σε αυτούς και με κάτοικο του χωριού. Ντόπιος Μακεδόνας γαρ μιλούσε τη σύγχρονη Μακεδονική γλώσσα "μια χαρά" μιλούσαν με τους δημοσιογράφους από τη γειτονική χώρα.

Αστυνομικός βλέπει το σκηνικό, ακούει προφανός τη συζήτηση και επιθετικά πλησιάζει τη παρέα. Απευθύνεται στο χωριανό... Μου μετέφεραν τί συνέβη..

Αστυνομικός: Γιατί μιλάς αυτή τη γλώσσα; Δεν πρέπει να ξαναμιλήσεις!
Μακεδόνας χωριανός: Δε θα θα μου πεις εσύ τι γλώσσα θα μιλάω...Έχω πάει τρία χρόνια στρατιώτης για την Ελλάδα...
Αστυνομικός: Σου είπα κάτι πριν...
Μακεδόνας χωρικός: Ότι και να μου λες δεν σε ακούω...
Αστυνομικός:Έλα μαζί τώρα...!!!

Λοιπόν, τον χουφτώνει από τη μασχάλη και τον οδηγεί με το ζόρι στο αστυνομικό Γραφείο του χωριού... Τον αποσπά από τη παρέα και τη συζήτηση με τους δημοσιογράφους από τη Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας. Τί έγινε στο αστυνομικό Γραφείο δεν γνωρίζω...

Ερώτημα: Ποιός έδωσε εντολή στον αστυνομικό να μην έχουν επαφές οι Μακεδόνες του χωριού με πολίτες-δημοσιογράφους από τη γειτονική χώρα;

Λοιπόν όσοι δεν ξέρετε, μέχρι το 1974 ακόμη και ειδική άδεια έπρεπε να πάρει κάποιος για να ταξιδέψει Πρέσπα. Είχε μπάρες όπως με τα Πομακοχώρια στη Ξάνθη... Ο φόβος για τους ντόπιους Μακεδονες εξακολουθεί να είναι ισχυρός. Από τους περίπου 30.000 κατοίκους πριν τον Πόλεμο σήμερα είναι περίπου 1500 οι κάτοικοι σε όλη τη περιοχή Πρεσπών. Οι ντόπιοι Μακεδόνες μειψηφία και λίγα χωριά σχετικά "ατόφια" όπως οι Ψαράδες/Nivici (μερικές δεκάδες έμειναν στο χωριό μετά το 1949).

Η απόλυτη ξεφτίλα της Ελλάδας είναι και σήμερα το ζήτημα των Μακεδόνων πολιτικών προσφύγων του Εμφυλίου που δεν έχουν δικαιωθεί ακόμη και σήμερα. Σίγουρα στην αντιπροσωπεία από τη Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας θα υπάρχουν μεθαύριο και απόγονοι-παιδιά εκείνων που το ελληνικό κράτος φρόντισε να μην επιστρέψουν ποτέ στη γη τους...

Κατάντια ακόμα και σήμερα και θα απορώ αν οι αρμόδιοι δεν στείλουν τον αστυνομικό στο περιστατικό "σπίτι του" ή τα ανάλογα μέτρα εναντίων του. Δεν αποκλείεται να είναι και αστυνομικός Χρυσαυγίτικης "κοπής" αφού δυστυχώς στην Αστυνομία έχει πολλούς εκεί...

Με τις υγείες σας δημοκράτες συμπολίτες...

ΥΓ Τάσος ο Μακεδόνας, Θεόφιλος ο αστυνομικός...

[Carlin]

A Greek citizen with a Macedonian conscious was arrested in Prespa today by Greek police for talking in the Macedonian language with Macedonian journalists

Αστυνομικός: Γιατί μιλάς αυτή τη γλώσσα; Δεν πρέπει να ξαναμιλήσεις!
Μακεδόνας χωριανός: Δε θα θα μου πεις εσύ τι γλώσσα θα μιλάω...Έχω πάει τρία χρόνια στρατιώτης για την Ελλάδα...
Αστυνομικός: Σου είπα κάτι πριν...
Μακεδόνας χωρικός: Ότι και να μου λες δεν σε ακούω...
Αστυνομικός:Έλα μαζί τώρα...!!!

Google Translate -
Police officer: Why do you speak this language? You do not have to talk again!
Macedonian villager: You will not tell me what language to speak ... I have been a soldier for Greece for three years ...
Police officer: I told you something before ...
Macedonian peasant: Whatever you tell me I do not hear you ...
Police officer: Come along now ... !!!


FYI - Kotzias "bomb" - he will publish 33 documents on how the previous governments negotiated the name dispute.

https://plusinfo.mk/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%95%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0%D1%81-%D1%81%D0%BE-%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B1%D0%B0-%D1%9C%D0%B5-%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8-33-%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD/

Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias demanded the declassification of 33 documents that, according to announcements, would be a real "bomb" on how the negotiations between Macedonia and Greece were taking place by previous governments in both countries.

The documents have been in place since 1992 and they should show what were the proposals for the solution.

The request has been approved, and Kotzias' announcement is expected to be made tomorrow.

[Karposh]

еве што точно кажа Грчкиот пратеник:

– Пријатели од Северна Македонија, както се разбрахме, време е да оставиме назад всичко които не разделја и да видим напред това което е заимнето пријателство и сотрудничевство и љубовта.

URL:
https://republika.mk/927927

I was close

[Karposh]

A Greek citizen with a Macedonian conscious was arrested in Prespa today by Greek police for talking in the Macedonian language with Macedonian journalists

From Google Translate, "...Well, he sucks him from the armpit...". Huh?!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Greek MP from Negush region addresses Macedonians in his "native Slavic" language in Greek Parliament

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmCHCqQ2BQ0

A search on the net indicates that he's from the below village in Ber:

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Нова_Луковица

еве што точно кажа Грчкиот пратеник:

– Пријатели од Северна Македонија, както се разбрахме, време е да оставиме назад всичко които не разделја и да видим напред това което е заимнето пријателство и сотрудничевство и љубовта.

URL:https://republika.mk/927927

Here is some more from that link above (rough translation from Macedonian to English):

How they're lying to you: For the communistic media, the Bulgarian words that the Greek lawmaker addresses us with have become Macedonian.

An MP from Syriza from the Greek parliament's speaking podium made an address to "friends from Northern Macedonia" in a language that is understandable to us. If you carefully listen to his address, it is clear that the language has many Bulgarian elements, except for the word "пријатели" and the like, which is the same for both Bulgarians and Macedonians. The Bulgarian media rightly claimed that he addressed us in pure Bulgarian. "Today," said that although perhaps with good intent, the Syriza MP addressed us in Bulgarian, as evidenced by the words he used: "Както се разбрахме", "всичко", "разделја" "да видим", "това", "сотрудничество", etc. Some words, "това" for example, are used in Strumica, probably in Aegean Macedonia, but the whole context of the Greek MP's sentence, including the emphasis, points more to Bulgaria than to Macedonia.

Against this background, a dozen so-called media outlets reported that the Greek MP addressed us in the Macedonian language. After all, here's what the Greek MP said: Friends from Northern Macedonia, as we understood it, it is time to leave back all that divides us and look forward, which is lonely friendship and cooperation and love. How much is this in the Macedonian language, should it warm your souls, as if, look how good the agreement is and how much the Greeks now like us, you can estimate for yourself.

In the beginning he said he will speak in Slavic, in the end he said something about "Makedoniki glosso". This MP is supposed to be from Aegean Macedonia, whether he descended from ethnic Macedonians or Turkish refugees I don't know. But I doubt he learned to use all those words (e.g: сотрудничество) from people who live nearby. And I am not so sure, from the short sentence he spoke, that it is characteristic of the region he is from. He has obviously made an effort to learn to speak like that, and he did it without having to read it all from a script, so why wouldn't he make the address in literary Macedonian, if the people in the Macedonian republic was his intended audience? Not it differed much from some Macedonian dialects in such a short sentence, but why speak in way that somewhat resembles literary Bulgarian? Is it a coincidence that there is a Bulgarian language wikipedia page on this guy yet one in Greek doesn't even exist? Perhaps. I find myself agreeing with the author of this article when it comes to the media. Some Greek MP says a few understandable and conciliatory words and the pro-Zaev media cannot wait to promote it like it's the greatest gesture of our time, all the while ignoring the underlying message of that gesture, which is give up your historical identity.

[maco2envy]

Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias demanded the declassification of 33 documents that, according to announcements, would be a real "bomb" on how the negotiations between Macedonia and Greece were taking place by previous governments in both countries.

The documents have been in place since 1992 and they should show what were the proposals for the solution.

The request has been approved, and Kotzias' announcement is expected to be made tomorrow.

I guess we shall see if Gruevski was correct when he said that he rejected a agreement which was more favourable (for the Macedonians) than the current agreement.

[maco2envy]

Do you guys think the Syriza MP's address was in Bulgarian to avoid outburst or was it provocation?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Do you guys think the Syriza MP's address was in Bulgarian to avoid outburst or was it provocation?

The average Greek MP wouldn't know the difference between Macedonian and Bulgarian. They still think Albanians and Vlachs are ethnic Greeks. So I don't think it was to avoid an outburst. I also don't think it was meant to be an overt provocation towards Macedonians (but it could come across as denigrating). It was either done with good intentions but in poor taste (or research) or with sneaky intentions that included a subliminal nod to certain traitors and enemies. At this stage, I am leaning towards the last of those options.

[Risto the Great]

If he's from around voden, maybe the dialect is different enough. But if he was trying to use anything Lerinsko, he failed miserably.

[Soldier of Macedon]

If he's from around voden, maybe the dialect is different enough. But if he was trying to use anything Lerinsko, he failed miserably.

I'm skeptical because the speech sounded so formal, if it was in dialect I think it would sound more organic.

[Risto the Great]

I've spoken with Macedonians from voden and they don't even sound like that.

[Soldier of Macedon]

He's actually from a village in Ber. To your point though, the dialects of Ber fall within the broader Solun-Voden group of dialects. Here is what it states in Bulgar wiki.

https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Георгиос_Урсузидис

Роден е в 1961 година в земеделско семейство в берското село Ново Луковища (Неа Ликояни).

There is a Macedonian wiki page on this village which has some interesting information:

https://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Нова_Луковица

По 1923 година, грчките власти тука населиле 65 бегалски семејства со вкупно 247 бегалци. Како мешана населба (селото Луковица) со македонско и грчко бегалско население, во 1928 година селото е забележано со 368 жители. Бидејќи грчките власти за бегалските семејства изградиле посебна населба во непосредна близина на старата и јужно од неа, во записот од 1940 година, па наваму, оваа населба се води како посебна и тоа како Нова Луковица, додека старата населба, за да се разликува од новата, била наречена Стара Луковица.