Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Spirit]

I believe he wanted to call it Notserbiaorbulgaria.
But the Greeks still thought that was irredentist in its agenda.

[Solun]

Who's actually in jail though? I read on some site that some guy was imprisoned, supposedly for speaking out against any name change. But I find it hard to believe to be honest. There is so much misinformation in Macedonian media its ridiculous.

I'm referring predominantly to those involved in the "Za Zaednicka Makedonija" movement who were on the streets protesting every day.
Such as Actor Vlado Jovanovski, Opera Singer Igor Drulovski, Film Director Boris Damovski. I can mention more as I come across information for them. All are either under arrest or under house arrest. These are the people who were leading the protests which were occurring every day. Its handy for the government to strategically lock up the protest leaders.

[Karposh]

I'm referring predominantly to those involved in the "Za Zaednicka Makedonija" movement who were on the streets protesting every day.
Such as Actor Vlado Jovanovski, Opera Singer Igor Drulovski, Film Director Boris Damovski. I can mention more as I come across information for them. All are either under arrest or under house arrest. These are the people who were leading the protests which were occurring every day. Its handy for the government to strategically lock up the protest leaders.

Doesn't that kind of contradict the balkaninsight article that Tomche posted earlier:

Zaev says it is good that people are now openly debating and criticizing, unlike in the previous ten years, when the authoritarian government sanctioned criticism.

“If we have freedom and democracy we will have progress. We will sometimes make good managerial appointments and sometimes we will miss. They will come and they will go. But what’s very important is whether we have hit the right direction, whether we are set on the tracks towards progress,” Zaev concludes.

Someone's telling fibs here. And I'm betting it's not Solun.

[Vangelovski]

I'm referring predominantly to those involved in the "Za Zaednicka Makedonija" movement who were on the streets protesting every day.
Such as Actor Vlado Jovanovski, Opera Singer Igor Drulovski, Film Director Boris Damovski. I can mention more as I come across information for them. All are either under arrest or under house arrest. These are the people who were leading the protests which were occurring every day. Its handy for the government to strategically lock up the protest leaders.

Yeah, but they're in jail for storming the Parliament, not for opposing a name change.

While every politician in Macedonia does need to be hung, that kind of thing will land you in prison if it doesn't go according to plan.

[Niko777]

Zaev now rejecting Greek demand for untranslated name and changing the constitution in interview for German Newspaper Spiegel

Zaev: A Name without translation is unacceptable

Link: http://www.alsat-m.tv/mk/%D0%B7%D0%B...5%D0%BF%D1%80/

Our name is our pride and our identity. I see no reason to change the Constitution, that would be very unworthy

Link: https://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politi...stveno-e-da-go

"In the past, that (a geographical addition) was a taboo for us. However, as Prime Minister of Macedonia, I can now officially announce that it is acceptable to us because it is a fact. Macedonia is a historical region located in three countries: our country, Greece and Bulgaria. Our country is the northern or the upper part. The southern part is in Greece, the eastern one in Bulgaria. These are the facts and we should not be against the facts. Because we understand and accept that the Greeks would like to have a distinction, we are ready to accept a geographic addition."

Link of the full interview: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...a-1194862.html

[Gocka]

I this circus still going on?

Who loved our Fyromanian apologist? His/Her/It's line of thought and reasoning was exactly what I encountered most often in FYROM. They can't for the life of them follow a logical process and think critically about every step of that process. They basically have a predetermined outcome that they try and support with a mash up of what ever comes to mind first. They don't start from the beginning but from the end and work backwards.

Deep down the vast majority of Fyromanians don't actually want a name change, but it comes with a big *, a huge caveat. They don't want a name change so long as that doesn't jeopardize what they view as a big pot of money if they get into the EU. So if you ask almost anyone, do you want a name change, the answer will always be no. if you dig a little deeper and ask the right questions, you still won't get a yes on the name change what you will get is a series of excuses and justifications why they have no choice, or a bunch of technicalities why its okay or not really a name change.

They act like children, they do things because they think they have to. Our recent Fyromanian visitor echoed what I hear all the time, we have to see out the process because we started it. We have no choice, Its forced on us. Their relation with the rest of the world is servile, or infantile. They look up to other countries, and when they ask you to do something, you have to do it. Its slave like, they do things with out questioning why.

There is also the grand master plan bunch who always seem to think that in the end everything will work out, and that everything is dance, a game, a conspiracy.

There is the bunch who believe they are technical masterminds. That Upper Macedonia is still technically Macedonia, or that as long as the constitution says Macedonia then we are still technically Macedonians, or even as far as, if we call ourselves Macedonians, we are still technically Macedonians. What kind of person wants a technical win in anything? Only a pathetic loser wants anything on a technicality.

It all boils down to a few basic problems that are so bad, that they seem insurmountable.

1. They are so poorly educated that they lack the ability to think logically and critically about anything, not just their identity.

2. They lack a basic moral compass, a set of values and principles. They are typical 21st century materialists, everything comes down to more money. Not only that but they also lack the ability to feel regret and shame, which can help nudge you in the right direction when all else fails.

3. They have no self esteem and no self worth. They don't actually believe that they are ever in control of anything, including themselves. Everything that happens is either forced, or "pishano" fate. So its easy to excuse away everything that happens.

4. They are lazy. Even in the prefect set of circumstances, they are just down right too lazy to actually put in effort to accomplish something. This is common in their daily lives, why would they be any more ambitious politically or as activists?

That's basically it. Most people suffer from 1, 2, 3, or even all 4. Turning this around requires all of those cultural qualities to be revered. We want them to make the right choices, but everything about who they are, they personalities, goes against everything we actually want from them.

I gave up a long time ago on the idea that we can just jump to the finish line and get them to be politically active and smart. They will never do anything of that sort, not until they change who they are altogether.

So arguing with them about the finer philosophical and political issues is a waist of breathe. If we want to do anything positive, then we need to start at the basics, which is at their every day lives. How they act and think on a daily basis.

Who were we kidding ever thinking they had the intellectual capacity to understand and take on these kinds of issues?

[Solun]

Yeah, but they're in jail for storming the Parliament, not for opposing a name change.

While every politician in Macedonia does need to be hung, that kind of thing will land you in prison if it doesn't go according to plan.

Would you be afraid of being attacked by an Opera Singer?

What occurred in parliament was used as an excuse to get them into jail.

[Odi Zvezdo]

I this circus still going on?

Who loved our Fyromanian apologist? His/Her/It's line of thought and reasoning was exactly what I encountered most often in FYROM. They can't for the life of them follow a logical process and think critically about every step of that process. They basically have a predetermined outcome that they try and support with a mash up of what ever comes to mind first. They don't start from the beginning but from the end and work backwards.

Deep down the vast majority of Fyromanians don't actually want a name change, but it comes with a big *, a huge caveat. They don't want a name change so long as that doesn't jeopardize what they view as a big pot of money if they get into the EU. So if you ask almost anyone, do you want a name change, the answer will always be no. if you dig a little deeper and ask the right questions, you still won't get a yes on the name change what you will get is a series of excuses and justifications why they have no choice, or a bunch of technicalities why its okay or not really a name change.

They act like children, they do things because they think they have to. Our recent Fyromanian visitor echoed what I hear all the time, we have to see out the process because we started it. We have no choice, Its forced on us. Their relation with the rest of the world is servile, or infantile. They look up to other countries, and when they ask you to do something, you have to do it. Its slave like, they do things with out questioning why.

There is also the grand master plan bunch who always seem to think that in the end everything will work out, and that everything is dance, a game, a conspiracy.

There is the bunch who believe they are technical masterminds. That Upper Macedonia is still technically Macedonia, or that as long as the constitution says Macedonia then we are still technically Macedonians, or even as far as, if we call ourselves Macedonians, we are still technically Macedonians. What kind of person wants a technical win in anything? Only a pathetic loser wants anything on a technicality.

It all boils down to a few basic problems that are so bad, that they seem insurmountable.

1. They are so poorly educated that they lack the ability to think logically and critically about anything, not just their identity.

2. They lack a basic moral compass, a set of values and principles. They are typical 21st century materialists, everything comes down to more money. Not only that but they also lack the ability to feel regret and shame, which can help nudge you in the right direction when all else fails.

3. They have no self esteem and no self worth. They don't actually believe that they are ever in control of anything, including themselves. Everything that happens is either forced, or "pishano" fate. So its easy to excuse away everything that happens.

4. They are lazy. Even in the prefect set of circumstances, they are just down right too lazy to actually put in effort to accomplish something. This is common in their daily lives, why would they be any more ambitious politically or as activists?

That's basically it. Most people suffer from 1, 2, 3, or even all 4. Turning this around requires all of those cultural qualities to be revered. We want them to make the right choices, but everything about who they are, they personalities, goes against everything we actually want from them.

I gave up a long time ago on the idea that we can just jump to the finish line and get them to be politically active and smart. They will never do anything of that sort, not until they change who they are altogether.

So arguing with them about the finer philosophical and political issues is a waist of breathe. If we want to do anything positive, then we need to start at the basics, which is at their every day lives. How they act and think on a daily basis.

Who were we kidding ever thinking they had the intellectual capacity to understand and take on these kinds of issues?

Perhaps a civil war? Maybe that'll wake them up from a nationalist front?

[Vangelovski]

1. They are so poorly educated that they lack the ability to think logically and critically about anything, not just their identity.

2. They lack a basic moral compass, a set of values and principles. They are typical 21st century materialists, everything comes down to more money. Not only that but they also lack the ability to feel regret and shame, which can help nudge you in the right direction when all else fails.

3. They have no self esteem and no self worth. They don't actually believe that they are ever in control of anything, including themselves. Everything that happens is either forced, or "pishano" fate. So its easy to excuse away everything that happens.

4. They are lazy. Even in the prefect set of circumstances, they are just down right too lazy to actually put in effort to accomplish something. This is common in their daily lives, why would they be any more ambitious politically or as activists?

The modern Macedonian in a nutshell. I'd maybe just add that they're too dumb to even realise any of this.

[Vangelovski]

Would you be afraid of being attacked by an Opera Singer?

What occurred in parliament was used as an excuse to get them into jail.

Prosecuting someone for storming parliament and physical assault is probably the most normal thing Macedonia has ever done. That would happen in any country.

This whole line about them being persecuted for resisting a name change is another self-inflicted fyromian rumour to excuse themselves for doing nothing. Lets not get deceived by the bullshit.

[Risto the Great]

The modern Macedonian in a nutshell. I'd maybe just add that they're too dumb to even realise any of this.

In all honesty, they can't all be dumb. These people are our blood. If they're dumb, so are we. So why do they do such a great job of looking dumb?

Or could it be that the progeny of those that migrated have more of a genetically ingrained spirit to achieve something. Meanwhile, those that remained behind kept the slave mentality.

Or maybe they're just dumb.

[Risto the Great]

In stark contrast, I'm presently in Japan. They got rid of most of their rubbish bins outside back 5 years ago. The result, the cities are cleaner with everyone taking their rubbish with them. Imagine the Macedonian result of such an initiative.

Huge pride and self respect here. If only ...

[Vangelovski]

In all honesty, they can't all be dumb. These people are our blood. If they're dumb, so are we. So why do they do such a great job of looking dumb?

Or could it be that the progeny of those that migrated have more of a genetically ingrained spirit to achieve something. Meanwhile, those that remained behind kept the slave mentality.

Or maybe they're just dumb.

I think anyone with half a brain gets out as soon as they can. There is a massive intellectual drain from that country. That many emigrants from such a tiny place can't be good for the gene pool.

[Vangelovski]

In stark contrast, I'm presently in Japan. They got rid of most of their rubbish bins outside back 5 years ago. The result, the cities are cleaner with everyone taking their rubbish with them.

They tried that in Canberra 15 years ago. It started off ok and then turned into a disaster. It was very annoying. Not having anywhere to put your rubbish forces you to drop it on the ground. We have our bins back now. Japan will catch up.

[Risto the Great]

Japan won't. It just works here. The people place their country higher than themselves. Australians are too self important to comply in the same way.