Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Tomche Makedonche]

Because they are already started and ending them abruptly isn't the right way to go about it. Regardless of the fact that the negotiations are, for the lack of better word, 'forced' upon us by EU/NATO, we will show more maturity if we are willing to have a dialogue since we've already been shoehorned into this by EU/NATO. The same is true for Greece, they've been shoehorned into this as well.

What happens at the end of the dialogue is another matter. Im not saying there's no room to be worried or afraid, Im very worried as well, but not from our people or the fyromians as they are called here, but by our government and the international community who are not very open about the things that are discussed. I'm of personal belief that forcing this dialogue solely for the purpose of joining EU and NATO, 2 organizations that may or may not exist 10/20 or 50 years from now, is not the wisest choice if we consider our long term national interests. But as I said, we are in the position that we're in and continuing to talk is the better option because it shows that as a country and as people we are willing to talk to resolve problems, regardless of how absurd this whole thing is in the first place.

Clearly you haven't been following this forum for the last couple of years, because if you had, you would be well aware of all the logical flaws that have been exposed time and time again regarding the lines of thought you just regurgitated above.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Dvenov,

You're either having a laugh, completely delusional or on drugs. Maybe you're not even Macedonian.

The Macedonians in Macedonia are worthless, degenerate dogs.

If they were worthy of the air they breathe, they would have hunted down their politicians, hanged them in Macedonia Square, and left them to rot in public back in 1992.

Negotiating the non-negotiable in NEVER right. Continuing to do it is NEVER right. Apologising for it and saying we "have" to keep negotiating is NEVER right.

The last thing we need now is another Fyromian apologist telling us to stay quiet and allow the chain of events that will lead to our complete annihilation happen.

For someone to come out with that same Gligorovist mouth faeces 30 years later on the eve of our final catastrophe is absolutely mind-boggling.

Got sit at your master's feet and don't bother me with your pathetic dribbling.

Lol, when everyone trying to be diplomatic and all Vangelovski is interested in is being Vangelovski

[Tomche Makedonche]

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-officialy-renames-airport-highway-to-appease-greece-02-15-2018

Macedonia to Scrap Alexander Signs To Appease Greece

Macedonia said it will start replacing 'Alexander the Great' name signs from the busiest airport and highway – once its decision to rename them to satisfy Greece becomes official

Macedonia will soon start replacing the old “Alexander the Great” name signs from Skopje airport and from the E-75 highway that leads toward Greece.

The government's decision to rename key infrastructure was published on Thursday in the official gazette.

New signs erected along the highway will instead bear the new name, “Friendship”. The airport will be simply renamed “Skopje International Airport”.

Prime Minister Zoran Zaev announced that Macedonia would rename the airport and the highway as part of concessions reached with his Greek counterpart, Alexis Tsipras, at their first meeting at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, on January 24.

The move was designed to ease relations with Greece, in the hope that this would increase the chances of successfully concluding UN-sponsored bilateral talks on Macedonia'a name. This would then unlock Macedonia’s stalled EU and NATO accession process.

The long-standing "name" dispute centres on Greece's insistence that use of the word Macedonia implies a territorial claim to the northern Greek province of the same name. Athens insists that a new name must be found that makes a clear distinction between the Greek province and the country.

As a result of the unresolved dispute, in 2008, Greece blocked Macedonia’s NATO entry and it has also blocked the start of Macedonia’s EU accession talks, despite several positive annual reports from the European Commission on the country’s progress.

Greece also saw the old names of the airport and highway as a deliberate provocation, insisting that the ancient warrior king Alexander the Great was an exclusive part of its own, Hellenic heritage.

Athens has praised its neighbour’s move to rename infrastructure as a step in the right direction towards building mutual trust.

Meanwhile, the UN-sponsored talks between the two sides are expected to resume soon.

At the last meeting, on Tuesday, in Vienna, Greek Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias and his Macedonian counterpart, Nikola Dimitrov, discussed details about a possible name agreement for a marathon seven hours.

After that meeting, Macedonian Prime Minister Zaev said progress has been made in three out of seven points contained in the latest proposal package for a name solution forwarded by UN mediator Matthew Nimetz. He did not reveal specific details.

“That is a signal for us and encouragement for the Greek side that it is possible to find a solution,” Zaev told Macedonian media on Wednesday.

Unofficially, possible name solutions involve using adjectives such as “Upper”, “Northern” or “New” in front of the term “Macedonia”.

But these lie only in the realm of speculation. Hardline Greek nationalists oppose any use of the term "Macedonia" by their northern neighbour.

Greek officials have also said they would like to see a name change that would be “erga omnes”, for all uses, not just bilateral use, and want changes made to the Macedonian constitution to eliminate all risk of Macedonian irredentism.

Zaev said earlier this month that his country was ready to accept a compound name with a geographical qualifier put alongside the name Macedonia.

The government did not comment on making constitutional changes, which would require a two-third majority in parliament, which it does not have.

[Vangelovski]

Lol, when everyone trying to be diplomatic and all Vangelovski is interested in is being Vangelovski

Mate, I'm about to be a stateless, nationless man. The time for being diplomatic was in 1991. Protests were called for in early 1992, but by the end of the year we should have had our night of the long knives. Anything but civil war beyond 1993 has been absolute horseshit.

Once this is done, they will never reverse it. Just like the ventilator that everyone over there now calls the "Macedonian" flag.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Bulgarians making their moves to become a factor in the negotiations...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.9a16f75c1334

Bulgaria wades into Macedonia name dispute

SKOPJE, Macedonia — Bulgaria has waded into a 25-year-long dispute between Greece and Macedonia regarding Macedonia’s name, saying that issue also concerns Bulgaria.

Macedonia and Greece are in a renewed push to resolve their dispute. Greece objects to its northern neighbor using the name, saying it implies territorial claims on its own province of Macedonia. One solution being discussed is to add a qualifier such as “new,” ‘’upper” or “north” to the name.

Bulgarian President Rumen Radev said Friday after meeting with his Macedonian counterpart Gjorge Ivanov that any name agreed on with Athens should not include “a geographical qualifier that is related to the territory of Bulgaria.” He did not explain further.

The historical territory of Macedonia included lands that are now in Greece, Bulgaria and the country that calls itself Macedonia.

NOTE: Racial slurs edited and noted in Italic

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2018/02/16/bulgaria-issues-warning-over-macedonia-name-dispute/

Bulgaria Issues Warning Over ‘Macedonia’ Name Dispute

Bulgaria’s president has said his country backed a solution to the name dispute between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia but warned a new name should not encroach on Bulgarian territory.

Rumen Radev was speaking to reporters after meeting Macedonian counterpart Gjorge Ivanov.

“We back the solution of the name contest between Skopje and Athens. Our position is clear: the solution of the name contest should not contain any geographical elements which in itself, hints at territorial parts belonging to Bulgaria,” he said.

Nationalists in Bulgarian have previously hit out at Greece, accusing it of usurping the name Macedonia.

Bulgaria’s Defence Minister Krasimir Karakachanov has previously said Sofia also had an equal right to the historical, cultural term ‘Macedonia‘.

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.rferl.org/a/eu-upbeat-macedonia-name-urges-reforms-balkans/29043849.html

EU Upbeat On Macedonia Name, Urges Reforms In Balkans

A senior official says the European Union is "very confident" that a 27-year-old dispute over Macedonia's name, which has hampered the former Yugoslav republic's progress toward NATO and EU membership, will be resolved by the end of June.

EU Enlargement Commissioner Johannes Hahn spoke upon arrival in Sofia on February 16 for talks between EU foreign ministers and their counterparts from countries that are candidates to join the 28-state bloc.

Asked whether the dispute between Macedonia and Greece could be settled during Bulgaria's EU presidency of the bloc, which ends in June, Hahn said he was "very confident about this."

Greece has long objected to Macedonia's name, contending that it suggests that Skopje has claims to the territory and heritage of the region in northern Greece that has the same name.

The dispute between Greece and Macedonia, which for now is formally known at the UN as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), has persisted since the country gained independence from Yugoslavia in 1991.

Amid a flurry of negotiations, UN mediator Matthew Nimetz has voiced optimism that a solution is within reach.

Leaders of the two countries have also said progress has been made in settling the dispute, and there are indications that an agreement -- if one is reached -- could include Macedonia adding "Upper," "New," or "North" to its name.

https://www.rferl.org/a/macedonia-greece-renames-airport-highway-alexander/29023972.html

Macedonian Foreign Minister Nikola Dimitrov told reporters in Sofia that his country has matured and no longer needs "roots back 2,000 years to feel self-confident."

"It's better to cooperate and compete on things that matter today than compete on who had more glorious victories and defeats in our rich history," he said.

"We have the same approach towards the difference we have with Greece," he said.

Macedonia became a candidate for EU membership in December 2005, but EU-member Greece blocked the start of negotiations, which requires unanimous agreement by all EU states.

Hahn also reiterated a frequent message from the EU to Western Balkans countries that are prospective members, saying they will have to implement substantial reforms before they can be allowed in.

A new EU strategy says that Serbia and Montenegro, which are considered the front-runners among the six Western Balkans countries that are not members, could be allowed in by 2025 if they meet all the conditions.

"Everybody realizes that the conditions have to be met, that quality comes before speed, that the strategy is not an invitation to do away with conditionality," Hahn said.

In addition to Serbia and Montenegro, the Western Balkans countries that are not EU members are Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, and Macedonia.

Also speaking in Sofia, EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said the strategy addresses "the entire region" and "doesn't create different boxes or categories among the regional parties we have [in] the Western Balkans."

She said that 2025 "is a realistic possible perspective...not only for the two countries that are currently negotiating but also for others that could start to negotiate."

Laying out the new strategy on February 6, Mogherini expressed hope that all six countries will join "not in a faraway future but in our generation."

[Tomche Makedonche]

Mate, I'm about to be a stateless, nationless man. The time for being diplomatic was in 1991. Protests were called for in early 1992, but by the end of the year we should have had our night of the long knives. Anything but civil war beyond 1993 has been absolute horseshit.

Once this is done, they will never reverse it. Just like the ventilator that everyone over there now calls the "Macedonian" flag.

I think you may have mistaken admiration as criticism

There is nothing you have said that I disagree with

[Vangelovski]

I think you may have mistaken admiration as criticism

There is nothing you have said that I disagree with

I didn't, I was just having another bitch

[Phoenix]

Because they are already started and ending them abruptly isn't the right way to go about it.

To end something after 25 years would hardly be considered abrupt, especially when nothing positive has been achieved by the Macedonian side, instead they have made concession after concession for zero reward.
It's the real life example of that 'Simpsons' episode where Bart continues to stick his finger in the power socket...and doesn't learn anything from the experience...

Regardless of the fact that the negotiations are, for the lack of better word, 'forced' upon us by EU/NATO, we will show more maturity if we are willing to have a dialogue since we've already been shoehorned into this by EU/NATO. The same is true for Greece, they've been shoehorned into this as well.

Poor greece, my heart goes out for those poor cunts being "shoehorned into this as well"...fuck off mate, play your bouzouki somewhere else.

You don't show "maturity" by negotiating your name, national symbols and history, not only to the greeks but to your other neighbours...and at each sitting you "negotiate" another piece of your identity...that's not "maturity", that's merely an act of a people who are self-loathing and gutless, a people who have no red-lines and no self respect or dignity.

What happens at the end of the dialogue is another matter. Im not saying there's no room to be worried or afraid, Im very worried as well, but not from our people or the fyromians as they are called here, but by our government and the international community who are not very open about the things that are discussed.

Wake up dickhead...what happens at the end of the dialogue is called the endgame...this is the morning you wake up scratching your arse and picking your nose, wondering what just happened...although the journey took 25+ years, you've missed every sign post and fork in the road, only to run head first into a nondescript, featureless dead end.

I'm of personal belief that forcing this dialogue solely for the purpose of joining EU and NATO, 2 organizations that may or may not exist 10/20 or 50 years from now, is not the wisest choice if we consider our long term national interests.

Really..."not the wisest choice", Einstein...?
So why the fuck is it a good idea to allow the negotiations to run their course...when the fuckin' course is all about getting to this stage...you fuckin' fyromian-moron!!!

But as I said, we are in the position that we're in and continuing to talk is the better option because it shows that as a country and as people we are willing to talk to resolve problems, regardless of how absurd this whole thing is in the first place.

No, No, No...all it shows is that you're a spineless self loathing turd that has absolutely zero self respect, nor a passionate and willing custodian of Macedonian culture and identity...

[Tomche Makedonche]

To end something after 25 years would hardly be considered abrupt, especially when nothing positive has been achieved by the Macedonian side, instead they have made concession after concession for zero reward.

Believe it or not, in a recent article I read it tried to describe Greece recently agreeing to allow Macedonia to have the word Macedonia in some form within the new name was the most recent concession in the negotiation process and that everyone is now turning to Macedonia to finally make a concession in the negotiations

[Vangelovski]

Believe it or not, in a recent article I read it tried to describe Greece recently agreeing to allow Macedonia to have the word Macedonia in some form within the new name was the most recent concession in the negotiation process and that everyone is now turning to Macedonia to finally make a concession in the negotiations

When you demand absolutely everything from someone and then concede on one of those demands 30 years later, it would look like a concession to the untrained eye and the average Macedonian.

[Vangelovski]

Poor greece, my heart goes out for those poor cunts being "shoehorned into this as well"...fuck off mate, play your bouzouki somewhere else.

Oh come on Phoenix. Greece was just minding its own business, smashing its plates. They wanted to be Macedonia's friend but NATO/EU pulled the shoehorn out and shoehorned the shoehorn out of them. Don't you remember the shoehorning back in '92? It was the Chinese year of the shoehorn.

[Tomche Makedonche]

When you demand absolutely everything from someone and then concede on one of those demands 30 years later, it would look like a concession to the untrained eye and the average Macedonian.

They were literally trying to make it out as though the Greeks were being the reasonably generous party in all of this whilst the stubborn Macedonians hadn’t conceded anything to date... and from memory this shit came from a “European” media outlet.

[Vangelovski]

They were literally trying to make it out as though the Greeks were being the reasonably generous party in all of this whilst the stubborn Macedonians hadn’t conceded anything to date... and from memory this shit came from a “European” media outlet.

Poor Zaev. Imagine the pressure he feels. It must be terrible having his name dragged through mud like that. Imagine being called a stubborn dirty little nationalist.

[Phoenix]

Believe it or not, in a recent article I read it tried to describe Greece recently agreeing to allow Macedonia to have the word Macedonia in some form within the new name was the most recent concession in the negotiation process and that everyone is now turning to Macedonia to finally make a concession in the negotiations

That's classic negotiating strategy...both sides begin with extreme opposing positions and slowly work their way to a middle ground...the only problem has been that our side has never negotiated from an extreme starting point...the greeks have convinced the world that Macedonia is a threat to greek security (as totally absurd as that idea is)...it has convinced the world that we're appropriating 'greek culture' by associating ourselves with ancient history and symbolism...the greeks have fooled the world that their society has an unbroken lineage to the ancient world...for the greek side, these are all extreme starting points in their negotiating tactics against Macedonia...our side has already conceding huge ground in disassociating themselves from historical symbols and culture, they've further confused and muddied the waters with accepting certain migration theories...all to appease the rampant racism of the greek side in some 'clever' negotiating strategy...

On a linear scale where zero (0) is the so called 'middle ground' and one side starts its negotiation from starting point 10+ve and the other side starts at the other end of the scale at 10-ve a negotiated settlement at zero may be deemed an acceptable outcome for both parties...but the Macedonian's have started at Zero and are negotiating with the greeks who are starting at 10-ve...we've already been pulled into (very) negative territory...