Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Pelister]

King Makedon, the Greeks are more involved and connected at the highest levels of politics in Australia, than they are in Canada or the United States.

For example, the current #2 of the political party forming Government is squarely in their pockets.

In Australia the numbers matter more. By that, I mean the number of Greeks involved in politics and lobbying, not so much population numbers.

Because of that, we have ethnic Greek branches of the major political parties, as well as many branches which were 'stacked' by the Greeks before the major parties began cracking down on branch stacking. This has subsequently led to Greeks being voted to State Delegate positions and then to Parliamentary candidate positions and finally to Ministerial positions.

Of course, it goes without saying that it's all possible because of the Greeks being rather organised, having sorted out many of their internal problems / in-fighting much earlier on than we have.

Without naming names, one senior politician has also said to us that for them, it is quite good that the Macedonian community is so disorganised and in shambles, for if we all worked as one, the politicians would not be able to ignore us any longer and that would cause problems for them with the Greeks.


But I'm confident that things are changing.

I think many more people are now getting involved who understand the Australian political system, speak fluent English, and have been raised in Australia and are educated at higher levels and the politicians seem to be taking notice of this now.

Soon enough they will not be able to ignore our community, whilst we're getting a lot smarter at understanding the contacts needed and who to get behind early on.

The responses of the politicians are changing too, their willingness to meet with us at the highest levels and discuss what our community wants and needs have completely changed, they seem to understand the change that is happening in our community and its leadership and they're responses are in line with that.



As for organising a protest, it does take a lot of work but it's not as hard as it used to be to get the numbers out, nor does it take as long to organise the protest. We organised the last one in just under a month and a half (compared to the big one in the 90's which took 6 months of hard work) - we may not be able to get as many as the big protest in the early 90's, but with mobile phones today (and SMS, etc) and with the Internet and the Radio and the TV and so on, we are definitely able to pull off another protest like the one we organised in Melbourne last year. But Volk is right, there also needs to be a simultaneous sense of urgency or pressure for their to be a real turnout.

Yea, it doesn't really have much to do with the Greek lobby actually, but with Greeks who have a strong opinion about it close to the Prime Minister, and in the Cabinet.

[Rogi]

Then you have Nick Bolkus (Greek-Australian, Former Minister) running a lobbying company, with his partner Alexander Downer (former Foreign Minister)... which in itself makes it pretty clear why Downer had no interest in hearing the Macedonians.

[Risto the Great]

UMD Resolution on Macedonia's Constitutional Name

UMD Board of Directors on the Occasion of the 1st UMD Global Conference Pass Resolution on Macedonia's Constitutional Name

WASHINGTON, D.C. - June 15, 2009 - On June 13, 2009, on the occasion of the 1st United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) Global Conference, the UMD Board of Directors passed a resolution offering unwavering and consistent support for the protection of the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia. The text of the resolution is as follows:

R E S O L U T I O N

OF THE

BOARD OF DIRECTORS

OF THE

UNITED MACEDONIAN DIASPORA

DATED: JUNE 13, 2009


The Board of Directors of the United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD), on the occasion of UMD's First Global Conference, affirming UMD's unwavering and consistent support for retention of the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia and UMD's rejection of attempts to impose any name contrary to the Republic of Macedonia's constitutional name, hereby declares:

WHEREAS, the Republic of Macedonia peacefully and democratically declared its independence from Yugoslavia on September 8, 1991, and

WHEREAS, the Macedonian people, upon peacefully securing their independence, rightfully chose their historic and ancestral name for themselves and their state, and

WHEREAS, the Republic of Macedonia's constitutional name is central to the identity and self-determination of the Macedonian people, their Macedonian language, culture and heritage, and to the creation of a stable, prosperous, and tolerant democratic society; THEREFORE BE IT,

RESOLVED, that the United Macedonian Diaspora, reiterates its unwavering support for retention of the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia, rejects attempts to impose any name contrary to the historically accepted and democratically affirmed name of the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian people, and urges the full membership of Macedonia in NATO and a date certain for negotiations for membership in the European Union.

Rogi, I am sure you fought hard for this resolution.
It is welcome to see some commitment to ideals.

Are you completely happy with the wording?
It could almost be interpreted that the Constitutional name is what is being supported by the UMD. Rather than the actual name of "Macedonia".

But is somewhat clarified later by referring to the historically accepted name.

Was there a need to express a desire to join NATO (with any name, even the good one!) on behalf of the Macedonian Diaspora? Surely that could have been another resolution that could have been thought about independently from the name/identity issue.

The armchair critic here gives it a 6.9 out of 10.

[Rogi]

Yeah, I made the same points about it, though most felt it was not necessary to mention the Constitutional name separately from the "International" name, because that may imply we support them being separate and different entities, rather we see the one name, the Constitutional name as THE name (for all purposes).

It's not really the one I drafted, but the same message generally still gets through.

[Rogi]

This was the initial draft we toyed with initially.

The one that came out (adopted at the Conference) is quite different and much shorter than the initial draft. The same message of no-name-change is there, serving the same purpose.

This one was dropped, mainly because it repeats itself, covers more things than it should (diluting the message) and because it separates the name into 2 entities (International and Constitutional) rather than just using the name, making it clear there is no distinction between international name and constitutional name...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






1ST GLOBAL CONFERENCE

1st Session

MACEDONIAN GLOBAL RES. 001

Expressing the sense of the Macedonian people throughout the world and their unwavering opposition to the continued denial and disrespect of their right to self-determination, and their unwavering positions on the protection and defense of the Macedonian name and identity, as well as the stability of the Republic of Macedonia and its ideological and existential purpose as the home and state of the Macedonian people,

Expressing furthermore the unwavering and resolute objection by the Macedonian people throughout the world against the continued negotiations over the Macedonian name and identity by Macedonian Governments, past and present,

AT THE UMD GLOBAL CONFERENCE

June 13, 2009

The Board of Directors of the United Macedonian Diaspora, as hosts of the UMD Global Conference, submits the following resolution to be adopted by the international Macedonian Community, representing all Macedonians;

RESOLUTION

Expressing the sense of the Macedonian people from all over the world and their unwavering opposition to the continued denial and disrespect of their Right to self-determination, and their unwavering positions on the protection and defense of the Macedonian name and identity, as well as the stability of the Republic of Macedonia and its ideological and existential purpose as the home and state of the Macedonian people,

Expressing furthermore the unwavering and resolute objection by the Macedonian people from all over the world against the continued negotiations over the Macedonian name and identity by Macedonian Governments, past and present,

Whereas, the Republic of Macedonia became a member of the United Nations on April 8, 1993 and as an independent state, has the sovereign right to determine its name and national identity; and,

Whereas, the conditions set for Macedonia's admission into the United Nations, specifically the imposition of the name "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is in direct violation of the United Nations Charter; and,

Whereas, negotiations over the name of the Republic of Macedonia, under the auspices of the United Nations, continue to deny the Republic of Macedonia its sovereign right to determine its own name and nationality according to the Articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; and,

Whereas, the Government of the Republic of Macedonia cannot negotiate over the centuries old name and identity of the ethnic Macedonian people, especially since a substantial portion of them live outside the borders of the Republic of Macedonia,

Now, therefore, we, the undersigned organizations and entities

Resolve by unanimous public vote by the international Macedonian community, representing Macedonians throughout the world, at the UMD Global Conference 2009,
That the Macedonian people from all over the world (current citizens and ethnic Macedonian non citizens of the Republic of Macedonia)--

(1) Declare the negotiations over our identity and the name of our state, the Republic of Macedonia, as an insult to their basic human dignity, an insult to their culture, language and forefathers and declare that they ignore the rights granted by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights;

(2) Declare the negotiations over their identity and the name of their state, the Republic of Macedonia, as an insult to the Sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia and its rights as a sovereign nation as prescribed by the United Nations Charter;

(3) Urges the Macedonian Government, in the strongest of terms, to immediately--

(A) End all negotiations over the name and its sovereign right to determine its name and national identity;
(B) Exercise its sovereign right to determine its name and national identity by demanding that the United Nations refer to the Republic of Macedonia under its Constitutional name, the Republic of Macedonia;

(4) Demands that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia immediately end all UN-mediated negotiations over the its name and identity and seek to resolve any disputes over its name on a purely bilateral level with any state disputing the name of the Republic of Macedonia and the sovereign right of the Republic of Macedonia to determine its name and national identity.

(5) Denounce any possibility of introducing a referendum to change the constitutional name of the Republic of Macedonia

(6) Declare that the name of our country has always been Macedonia, our language has always been Macedonian, our people have always been Macedonians and our ethnicity has been Macedonian, and always will be.


Copies to:
Secretary-General of the United Nations,
United Nations Security Council,
Officials & Members of the European Union & European Communities,
President of the United States of America,
United States Secretary of State,
President of the Republic of Macedonia,
Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia,
Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Macedonia,
Macedonian Ambassadors to all appropriate countries and organizations,
Governments of all United Nations member states,
Officials and media in the Republic of Macedonia,
International media.

[Risto the Great]

I am disappointed the final resolution did not end up looking like yours Rogi.
It makes the will & hope of the Macedonian Diaspora very clear.

[Jankovska]

Well done Rogi Excellent work mate

[Dimko-piperkata]

Ivanov Freezes Relations with Advisors

Macedonia’s President Georgi Ivanov will temporarily freeze relations with two of his advisors, Dimitar Mircev and Risto Nakovski, following their public statements on solutions over the "name" row with Greece, an unnamed source from his cabinet says.

According to unnamed cabinet sources speaking to local Dnevnik daily on Thursday, the two advisors acted unilaterally by appearing on TV with speculations about what would be acceptable name compromise for the country.

Nakovski said in an interview for local A1 TV that that the possible name “Republic of Macedonia (Vardar)” would be far better solution that the one currently being mooted, “Northern Macedonia.”

He argued that the first name containing in brackets the name of the largest Macedonian river Vardar would be more historically and geographically correct.

Mircev previously pointed out that the name “Northern Macedonia” would be unacceptable for the country.

The president has dismissed these stances as personal and that he would opt for a “reasonable compromise” that would not harm the identity and dignity of the country.

Macedonia’s Preimer Nikola Gruevski, yesterday speaking in front of his party members, called the local political leader to unify regarding this issue. This happened after Parliament failed to forge a joint strategy for the name row.

Local media says that the confusion over the country’s stance is more evident as the date for the fresh round of UN sponsored talks approaches.

The mediator in the row, the US diplomat Matthew Nimetz, has summoned both sides on talks in Geneva on June 22 after a stall of the process due to the elections in both countries that took place earlier this year.

Last year, the row gained further tension after Athens blocked Skopje’s NATO accession because of it. Athens argues that Skopje’s official name, Republic of Macedonia, implies territorial claims towards its own similarly-named northern province.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/20326/

we appreciate that decision very much, this traitors must be fired
we will suggest as an new advisor to take gospodin TODOR PETROV... you both will be unbeatable

[Risto the Great]

An appropriate action.

The mediator in the row, the US diplomat Matthew Nimetz, has summoned both sides on talks in Geneva on June 22 after a stall of the process due to the elections in both countries that took place earlier this year.

Dear Mr Nimetz, if you are committed to robbing a nation of its sovereignty and undermining its rights as afforded under United Nations charters, please feel free to visit us in Macedonia as opposed to "summoning" our diplomats like lambs to the slaughter.

[Pelister]

I think its welcomed, but I would rather see them ask the Macedonian government to end the negotiations now.

I believe that is how most Macedonians in the diaspora feel, and I believe that is what they want.

[Pelister]

U.N charter ...
\
We have a right to self determination, and no government, no mediator, no country can take that away from us. Or can they?

[Giorikas]

U.N charter ...
\
We have a right to self determination, and no government, no mediator, no country can take that away from us. Or can they?

Your country agreed (even if under pressure) to negotiate. That's in written. Now dislike that reality as much as you want, but this is the current situation. Does that answer your (probably rethorical question) question?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Giorikas, while some of our politicians appear piss-weak with regard to the name of our state, REGARDLESS what the 'new' proposition will be, Republic of Northern, Upper and Vardar Macedonia, or whatever, all of them are in unison that our Macedonian identity and language cannot be disputed or at risk.

Therefore........let's say we change the name to Upper Macedonia, for example....the Macedonian side and everybody else with an interest in this issue will be expecting Greece to recognize the Macedonian language and people within and outside of its borders, because I can gaurantee you that while some of our idiot politicians are willing to sell out the name of our state, NONE of them will dare tell the Macedonian Nation to stop using the identity of their people or language.

Therefore, if, hypothetically speaking, the Macedonians do make this concession and change to Upper Macedonia, what happens then........this whole issue all ends? Greece will stop behaving like a little bitch? Or will Greece pursue, until they make clear what their real intention is, to eradicate the MACEDONIAN IDENTITY in all ways?

[Giorikas]

Giorikas, while some of our politicians appear piss-weak with regard to the name of our state, REGARDLESS what the 'new' proposition will be, Republic of Northern, Upper and Vardar Macedonia, or whatever, all of them are in unison that our Macedonian identity and language cannot be disputed or at risk.

Therefore........let's say we change the name to Upper Macedonia, for example....the Macedonian side and everybody else with an interest in this issue will be expecting Greece to recognize the Macedonian language and people within and outside of its borders, because I can gaurantee you that while some of our idiot politicians are willing to sell out the name of our state, NONE of them will dare tell the Macedonian Nation to stop using the identity of their people or language.

Therefore, if, hypothetically speaking, the Macedonians do make this concession and change to Upper Macedonia, what happens then........this whole issue all ends? Greece will stop behaving like a little bitch? Or will Greece pursue, until they make clear what their real intention is, to eradicate the MACEDONIAN IDENTITY in all ways?

You call it a concession. I call it a necessary part to move on and to find this 'mutually acceptable solution'. Greece calls the fact that 'Macedonia' will be included in the name (and I'm 100% sure that that will be included in the new name) a concession from Greece's side.
You are now adding a point on the agenda that isn't there, namely, Greece recognising Macedonian people and language within it's borders. I told you many times, Greece does not distinguish it's citizens according to ethnicity. (even if I personally, as you know, do not believe that they have an ethnicity that should be callled Macedonian)
These people are Greek citizens, and what they want to feel in their hearts, publically, or at home is completely up to them. Now please give me an example of recent Greek state-terrorism where those who identify as (non-Greek) Macedonians have been sent to death camps, throwns in jail, silenced forever for that reason.... You can't. They are on TV debating, have the right to form political parties, participate in elections and so on. That does not equal the behaviour of anybody trying to eradicate anybody else. But you know all this.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The name of the state is tied to the name of the people, just like it is in Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc. Macedonians will never be known by any other name, regardless of the false concession Greece thinks it makes. I would go into more detail, but I see that you are the same racist monkey you were the last time you were banned from here, and you like to go through the same loops, poor Giorikas, you're like a Bart Simpson during Lisa's science project comparison with the lab rat.......

Ok, let me word it another way for you then. One day in the future, delegates of "Northern" Macedonia come to the Republic of Otto's Experiment in the south for some political meeting or similar, and there are foreign observers, so they have signs written in English, Greek and Macedonian, by those names.

Will Greece be asking for the name-plate identifying the ethnicity and language of the Macedonians to be changed from Macedonian to something else? Or is forcing their neighbour to change the name of their state enough racism for one century?