Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Pelagonija]

Haven't you seen a black woman before? At first I thought it was Carlin's joke, but the picture is real from yesterday's rally. It's already discussed around the web, but we still don't know who this woman is. Yet, there is so much interest that I believe in the next couple of days we'll have some news or an interview.

Speaking of pictures I saw a carton picture of a wolf with a macedonian flag in a threatening manner, it made me think does any sane Greek actually believe that Macedonia is a threat to Greece?

Macedonians are the least nationalistic group in the Balkans if not Europe not even capable of taking over a brothel in down turn Solun let alone destroy Greece, yet a few statues and a name has half of Greece pooing themselves. Geez I'd love to see how these modern Greeks would react if Sultan Erdogan decided to take Thrace.

[Phoenix]

...does any sane Greek actually believe that Macedonia is a threat to Greece? ...

I think you'll find that the sane are an impotent minority in the asylum (greece)...

[Karposh]

Haven't you seen a black woman before?

The photo of The Black Athena wearing the Greek flag as a head scarf is a metaphor for the Greek nation as a whole. I’m sure Phoenix has seen a black woman before but the point he is making is that most of the people protesting in Athens the other day are most probably of Albanian, Vlach, Turkish or some other ethnic descent who have been brainwashed (i.e. Hellenised) to believe in their mythical ethnic Greek purity that goes back through the ages. Oh the irony, a hodgepodge of various ethnicities coming together as one, who we’ll call the Pot in this case, to protest against the artificial nation to the north, who we’ll call the Kettle.

[Amphipolis]

LOL, I don't know who the woman is, but we may know in the next days. There are many black people in Athens; more than 90-95% of them are illegal immigrants. That means it is not normal to find black people (citizens) in Greece.

Nevertheless, there are also (fewer) black people (of mixed-race of course) who are (gasp) real Greeks in every sense (legal and essential). I can think of 5 or 6 famous ones, most notably Nikos Papatakis (who was darker when he was young, but very white when he got old, LOL), Niaguara (a swimmer champion), Schortsianitis (a basketball player), Mattiaba and Satti (young singers/songwriters) ect.

I don’t think Albanians or Turks/Muslims would join the rally, but you’ll never know. Arvanites or Vlachs are small entries in the Greek mix (around 1-2% each or less). For instance, the recent Albanian immigrants are more than the Arvanites.



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[Niko777]

European MP from Bulgaria Angel Dzhambazki calls Lerin, Kostur, Voden "occupied territories", says Greeks who live there are from Asia Minor

So far Greeks and Greek media are ignoring him but I wonder how they would have reacted if a Macedonian politician said this...

Full story: http://kurir.mk/makedonija/vesti/dza...rotesti-video/

[Niko777]

Leaked document published by Greek Newspaper "To Vima"

[Odi Zvezdo]

Leaked document published by Greek Newspaper "To Vima"

Macedonia? Skopje? FYROM? The European country with a name no one can agree on

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/macedonia-skopje-fyrom-the-european-country-with-a-name-no-one-can-agree-on/news-story/db9e9432e5ebf9d23681aa7c5f3871ad#.uvkhq

[Risto the Great]

Haven't you seen a black woman before? At first I thought it was Carlin's joke, but the picture is real from yesterday's rally. It's already discussed around the web, but we still don't know who this woman is. Yet, there is so much interest that I believe in the next couple of days we'll have some news or an interview.

I see no difference between a black woman in Greece and the former Turkish nationals that now reside in Egej. They are recent arrivals who are making a new life for themselves. They should stand above historical arguments because their mere presence in the region is an abnormal distortion of historical ebbs and flows in the region of Macedonia.

In other words, how dare they pretend to be Macedonians.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Surprise, surprise... like Vangelovski surmised: these are not normal people.

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/survey-macedonia-majority-supports-name-deal-with-greece-02-05-2018

Most Macedonians Back 'Name' Deal, Survey Shows

A majority of Macedonian citizens would support a compromise solution to the long-standing ‘name’ dispute with Greece, if that aids the country’s Euro-Atlantic prospects, a survey has shown

Some 61 per cent of Macedonians support a solution to the dispute with Greece over their country's name, if it speeds up Macedonia’s entry into NATO and the EU, a survey by the Skopje-based Institute for Democracy – Societas Civilis, a think tank, shows.

The survey showed that 33 per cent of respondents were categorically against making any compromises with Greece over Macedonia's name, while 4 per cent said they were somewhat against a name change.

The opinion poll shows that the dominant ethnic Macedonians are less inclined towards a solution than members of the large ethnic Albanian minority.

However, even among ethnic Macedonians, who have stronger emotional ties to the country’s name, 50 per cent would either completely or somewhat support a solution to the decades-old dispute with the neighbouring country.

But 42 per cent of ethnic Macedonians said they were categorically against a "name" deal.

Ethnic Albanians, who make up about a quarter of Macedonia’s population of just over 2 million, are much keener on a solution. Some 82 per cent of them backed a solution to the dispute, while just 1 per cent were against.

The opinion poll also showed the political affiliations of the respondents.

Some 60 per cent of those who said they had voted for the opposition right-wing VMRO DPMNE party opted against a deal, while 33 per cent of this party's supporters backed a compromise.

On the other hand, 76 per cent of the people who said they had supported the ruling Social Democrats said they would also support a deal with Greece, while 18 per cent were against.

Of the total number of respondents, 34 per cent think that if Macedonia changes its name to satisfy Greece, it could lead to a complete change of their Macedonian identity as well.

Another 19 per cent said they think that their identity will be changed – but only to a certain extent.

Fears about identity loss are most pronounced among ethnic Macedonians, 60 per cent of whom think that a name change would jeopardize their identity, while 35 per cent think otherwise.

The opinion poll was carried out between January 19-26 via phone by the M Prospect agency on a representative sample of 1,000 respondents.

The survey comes as Macedonia and Greece engage in intensive reinvigorated UN-sponsored talks that, if successful, should result in Greece lifting its blockade on Macedonia’s entry to NATO and to the start of EU accession talks.

The dispute centres on Greece's insistence that use of the word Macedonia implies a territorial claim to the northern Greek province of the same name.

Athens insists that a new name must be found that makes a clear distinction between the Greek province and the country.

As a result of the unresolved dispute, in 2008, Greece blocked Macedonia’s NATO membership It has also blocked the start of Macedonia’s EU accession talks, despite several positive annual reports from the European Commission on the country’s progress

[Risto the Great]

This is who surveyed the 1000 people apparently:

http://m-prospect.com/

Hard to believe anything coming out of Macedonia. But this survey sadly seems believable.

Another 19 per cent said they think that their identity will be changed – but only to a certain extent.

Yes. The "certain extent" is absolute.

Some 60 per cent of those who said they had voted for the opposition right-wing VMRO DPMNE party opted against a deal, while 33 per cent of this party's supporters backed a compromise.

On the other hand, 76 per cent of the people who said they had supported the ruling Social Democrats said they would also support a deal with Greece, while 18 per cent were against.

Half as many DPmNE supporters as compared to SDSm supporters are in favour of negotiating the Macedonian identity.

100% are utterly misguided.

[Tomche Makedonche]

An interesting article from a Greek.

https://euobserver.com/opinion/140819

'Macedonia' no longer needs inverted commas

About two months ago I ordered a cup of coffee at the cafeteria of the House of Commons.

The girl who was making the coffee asked me where I am from, because my accent sounded familiar. When I answered that I am from Greece she smiled, saying that she had thought so, being from Macedonia herself.

I told her that I have passed through her country, on my way to Serbia. When it was time to pay, she did not take my money: "The coffee is on me, because you are the first Greek I have heard say 'Macedonia'".

As I recount this incident, I am assailed by doubts as to whether I should be doing so. I fear, first, that I am describing myself as a way-cool, open-minded liberal urging those compatriots of mine who feel offended because a neighbouring country is using the name 'Macedonia' to relax.

I also fear that some Greeks will regard me as a traitor. And lastly, for a few moments there I felt like an idiot for exchanging the family silver for a caffe latte.

I know many people who think as I do.

I have no friends in Greece who say 'Macedonia' when they refer to Macedonia.

No colleagues who can write down that name without placing it within quotation marks, not even those who couldn't care less about the matter of the name.

That is, those who indeed forgot, not in 10 years, as prime minister Constantinos Mitsotakis had once predicted, but in 10 minutes.

Cold War history

In 1991, the Greeks, with massive demonstrations and active diplomatic manoeuvring, had denied to the neighbouring country, which had just gained its independence from the former Yugoslavia, its right to call itself Macedonia.

The Greek argument was that a region within Greece was also called by that name and that former Yugoslav Macedonia would claim it. The issue remains unresolved to this day.

Of course, this whole affair about the name of Macedonia is over. A double appellation has prevailed.

The country is called Macedonia by all the world, and Skopje in Greece. If 'Skopje' as a national designation does not exist abroad, then the same applies for 'Macedonia' within Greece.

The intense diplomatic activity of recent days and the meeting between the Prime Ministers of Greece and Macedonia, Alexis Tsipras and Zoran Zaev, at Davos, have raised expectations that the issue may be formally resolved after 27 years.

Macedonia may finally acquire a regular, formal appellation to be used by international organisations, perhaps Nova Macedonia or Macedonia of the North, which will differentiate it from Greek Macedonia and so appease the Greeks.

However, this glimmer of hope, or an "erga omnes" solution as the Greek side likes to say, is not really of interest to anyone else. No one, nowhere, will be using the new name.

The rest of the world is right, not Greece

Who is right? The rest of the planet is right, not Greece.

It is not possible to call a country by the name of its capital city, nor to demand that a third country call itself as we would wish.

Noone in Greece seriously believes the story about Macedonia's irredentist aspirations, so that we could ask anyone in Britain to do so.

How on earth could one of the poorest countries in Europe, with grave national minority problems of its own, a country which ardently wishes to join NATO, pose a threat to a country five times as large and as powerful?

Therefore, those of us who have no problem with this, can stop acting like officers of the ministry of foreign affairs, placing Macedonia within quotation marks in our writings or using tongue-twisting acronyms: PGDM (FYROM) is the no vowels appellation that Greece has provisionally accepted.

Let us call it 'Skopje' in Greece so we do not end up with a blackened eye, and 'Macedonia' when we are abroad so people don't think we are idiots.

Because the whole world does not merely call Macedonia 'Macedonia', but considers the Greeks insane in their persistence that it must be called otherwise - especially since we have never once in these past 30 years explained to anyone what it should be called instead.

Thimios Tzallas is a London-based journalist working for the parliamentary think tank Hansard Society and also commenting on British politics for Kathimerini, a daily morning newspaper published in Athens

[Amphipolis]

I see no difference between a black woman in Greece and the former Turkish nationals that now reside in Egej. They are recent arrivals who are making a new life for themselves. They should stand above historical arguments because their mere presence in the region is an abnormal distortion of historical ebbs and flows in the region of Macedonia.

In other words, how dare they pretend to be Macedonians.

Unlike my and your ancestors, the black woman's ancestors were probably NOT former "Turkish nationals".

Your people's presence in Macedonia takes instantly a different meaning if you call yourself Slav-Macedonian. Which historical flows are normal and which are not?

[Risto the Great]

Unlike my and your ancestors, the black woman's ancestors were probably NOT former "Turkish nationals".

I agree. But both are equally irrelevant when it comes to matters pertaining to Macedonia. Them talking about their connection to thousands of years of Macedonian history is sad and pathetic. But they can be Greek in every way if that helps you.

Your people's presence in Macedonia takes instantly a different meaning if you call yourself Slav-Macedonian. Which historical flows are normal and which are not?

A mass transplantation of millions of people such as the former Turkish nationals (note no quotation marks because it is a historical fact) is precisely NOT what I am talking about when I am talking about natural historical ebbs and flows. It was a purposeful distortion of the reality of the region. A success for the Greeks, but nothing to do with Macedonian people.

Lucky I don't call myself a Slav Macedonian.

Why doesn't anyone call Bulgarians as "Slav Bulgarians" while we are at it?

Logically one should restrict the Macedonian naming rights to people who belong to a race that fought for an independent country called Macedonia.

That would make you a Greek. How does that taste?

[Vangelovski]

Every time a Greek speaks, I smell fart. Just putting that our there.

[Pelagonija]

I wonder what Zajcheto da mu ebam majcheto agreed to in his meeting in Davos.?

Kotzias having a slight dig at Zajcheto.

[url]http://www.euronews.com/2018/02/05/greece-s-foreign-minister-on-fyrom-name-dispute

Greece's foreign minister has spoken exclusively to Euronews following Sunday's mass rally in Athens over the decades-long Macedonia dispute.

Hundreds of thousands of Greeks protested outside parliament over negotiations to allow the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to shorten their official name to "Macedonia".

Many say it implies a territorial claim on Greece's northern Macedonia region.

Nikos Kotzias says that FYROM has not prepared its people for an agreement, but recognizes that the Greek government has similar problems.

"I think that the rally was not as big as its organizers expected, considering that the entire center-right, right, and the extreme right-wing opposition supported it, as well as the church and other organizations," he said.

"I’m still waiting for Skopje, finally, to come out publicly and talk about the compound name.

"Which adjective do they want in front of the noun and describe it to their population?"

We are preparing the Greek public and as you can see, we are facing difficulties ... I do not see the same preparation on the other side and I have to say that I’m very concerned, even now, while we are having this interview."

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker is to visit Skopje, the capital of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia at the end of the month as part of a tour of six countries of the western Balkans.

"This is something that he has been planning and also announcing already for a long time. This is an area that he knows well from his previous capacities as Prime Minister of Luxemburg and he considers this region to be of great importance," said Kotzias.

Protestors are asking that any agreement should be put to a referendum so that the Greeks can have their say.