Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[mklion]

I don't admire them very much at all. If they were so attached to the name Macedonia, they wouldn't have named it Northern Greece in the first place.

Secondly in order to accept 800 billion dollars in loans they are happy to be told to shape up and kiss the feet of a hand full from the Trioka.

There is nothing for Greece to lose in these protests. All the rules are against Macedonia.

Hypothetically what if the Troika needed Greece to sort out its dispute with Macedonia before they were to receive hundreds of billions in loans?
Then we can see what they are made of.

Otherwise these protest are nothing but shallow and pathetic.

Exactly. The EU could do that if they really wanted Macedonia in the EU but they won't because they don't want us in the club

[Odi Zvezdo]

https://twitter.com/JamesKerLindsay

- Sadly, however, there is no political cost to #Greece for intransigence over name issue. By rejecting a deal, Athens only faces further reputational damage. Meanwhile #Macedonia faces real damage to its further development. #EU needs to find a way to change this imbalance.

- Today there will be a major demonstration in #Greece against a name agreement with #Macedonia. It has been appalling to see how the issue has been used as a political football by Greek politicians.


One of the people rallying today in Athens protesting the use of the name Macedonia by R.Macedonia.

According to any Greek, she'll be more Macedonian that any of you dirty skopiani!! Delusional lot they are!!

[Solun]

I don't know if it is relevant to the name dispute. Dictatorship DID establish similar administrations in 1971, but were cancelled by the 2nd dictatorship of 1973.

Actually, both types of administrators (the previous one called nomarchs who were appointed and then elected and the new ones called peripheriarchs who are elected) are questionable. We still vote for them but we're not sure what their duties are, comparing to Mayors.

In short, having an administration (e.g. for Crete) or not having one but having four smaller ones called Chania, Heracleion, Rethymnon and Lasithi, doesn’t mean that Crete doesn’t exist or that you don’t call it Crete.

Amphipolis could you advise the reason Ministry for Northern Greece was renamed in 1988?

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis could you advise the reason Ministry for Northern Greece was renamed in 1988?

Because of the name dispute.

[Stojacanec]

Because of the name dispute.

Your post 184 just denied this.

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/thousands-of-greeks-protest-against-macedonia-name-compromise

Thousands of Greeks protest against Macedonia name compromise

Tens of thousands of Greeks staged a mass rally in Athens on Sunday, urging the government not to compromise in a festering name row with neighbouring Macedonia.

Organisers claimed some 1.5 million people from across Greece and the Greek diaspora turned out to express their opposition to attempts by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras' government to broker a deal.

But police put the figure at around 140,000.

"The million protesters that the organisers imagined was wishful thinking," Tsipras said in a statement released by his office.

"The crushing majority of Greek people conclude that foreign policy issues should not be dealt with with fanaticism."

Earlier in the day a huge Greek flag flew over central Syntagma Square from atop a crane, and Greeks from all over the country and abroad chanted "Hands off Macedonia", "Macedonia is Greek" and "We won't leave until we are vindicated".

Among those in the cross-generation crowd were former PM Antonis Samaras - who was foreign minister when the name row began in 1991 - in addition to mayors, senior clerics, army officers and monks.

Keynote speaker Mikis Theodorakis, the renowned Zorba the Greek composer and resistance icon, called on the government to hold a referendum before taking a decision.

"Macedonia was, is and will forever be Greek," 92-year-old Theodorakis told the cheering crowd of protesters.

"If a government considers signing on behalf of our country... there is no doubt it must first ask the Greek people," he said, calling the neighbouring northern state "illegitimate".

Athens objects to Macedonia's name, arguing it suggests that Skopje has claims to the territory and heritage of Greece's historic northern region of the same name.

"Macedonians united Greece against the (Persian Empire)," said Nina Gatzoulis of the US Pan-Macedonian Association, arguing that a Greek climbdown on the name issue would create "permanent instability" in the region.

However, leftist Tsipras has been considering a resolution to the 27-year-old dispute, angering many opposition members and his own nationalist coalition partners.

Unresolved dispute

Several protesters wore traditional garb, including the uniform of Greek guerrillas who fought Bulgarian bands and Ottoman forces in Macedonia in the early 20th century.

"Cretan eagles lie in the earth of Macedonia," a Cretan representative told the crowd. "We tell our sister, Macedonia, we will not allow anyone to carve you up."

The protest -- the second on the Macedonia issue in a fortnight - was organised and funded by Greek diaspora groups, with the support of retired officer associations, cultural unions and church groups.

Anarchists stationed a counter-protest nearby, with riot police deployed to keep the two crowds apart.

Two weeks ago, tens of thousands had protested in Thessaloniki, the capital of Greece's Macedonia region. Police had estimated the turnout at over 90,000, while organisers claimed at least 400,000 attended.

The dispute has remained unresolved since the former Yugoslav republic's independence in 1991.

Greece considers the name "Macedonia" to be part of its own cultural heritage, as the province was the core of Alexander the Great's ancient empire.

Athens seeks guarantees that the use of the name by its neighbour implies no claim to parts of its own territory.

The government has accused far-right hardliners and the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party of trying to exploit the issue.

Boost Balkan stability

The government insists the rallies will not affect its determination to solve the issue and boost stability in the often tense Balkan region.

Athens says it is ready to accept a composite name that will establish a clear distinction from Greek Macedonia.

"The government is trying to give a patriotic solution to a problem that has troubled the country, its international relations and its diplomacy for over 25 years," government spokesman Dimitris Tzanakopoulos said Sunday.

"Not having a solution undermines our national interest," Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said last week.

Because of Greece's objections, Macedonia in 1993 joined the United Nations as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM).

To break the deadlock, longterm UN mediator Matthew Nimetz has now proposed several alternative names in Macedonian, including "Republika Nova Makedonija" or the "Republic of New Macedonia".

A resolution of the issue is needed before Macedonia can join NATO or the EU.

"They seek to join NATO and the EU with our own vote, so they can threaten us tomorrow from a position of strength," Theodorakis said.

Greece in 2008 threatened to veto Macedonia's NATO entry. Skopje subsequently took the issue to the International Court of Justice, which said Athens had been wrong to block its land-locked neighbour's aspirations

[Tomche Makedonche]

https://www.rferl.org/a/macedonia-greek-minister-kotzias-death-threats-name-dispute/29015159.html

Greek Officials Investigate Death Threats For Minister Over Macedonia Name Dispute

Officials in Greece say they are investigating a death threat against the country's foreign minister that is thought to be tied to efforts with Macedonia to resolve a decades-old name dispute between the neighbors.

Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias received a letter that "contains threats to him and his family" including the mention that there were "three bullets" for him, Civil Protection Minister Nikos Toskas said on February 2.

"It was threats to him and his family," Toskas told ANT1 TV.

He added that, in recent weeks, Kotzias has received other threatening letters and calls, as had other government ministries. He did not elaborate.

The two Balkan neighbors have been holding talks to resolve a name dispute that has strained bilateral relations since Macedonia, for decades a part of the former Yugoslavia, gained independence in 1991.

Greece argues that its neighbor's name implies a claim on its own province of Macedonia and wants it changed. The Macedonian government denies the charge.

Greek officials are said to favor a modifier to the word Macedonia by adding "Upper," "New," or "North" to it.

Greece has held up Macedonia’s drive to join NATO because of the dispute.

Greek protesters have held several demonstrations against any compromise on the name, with another planned for Athens on February 4

[Tomche Makedonche]

http://www.ekathimerini.com/225501/article/ekathimerini/news/thousands-join-protest-in-athens-over-macedonia-talks

I'm not posting the entire article due to the usual racist slurs but thought it would be pertinent to highlight the following paragraph

On Saturday, Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias hit out at the UN’s special envoy in the dispute, who said he believed Greece was “not denying the identity” of the people of FYROM.

“I clearly and sternly stressed that it is not within his competence to talk about what Athens’s policy is, much less to describe it incorrectly,” Kotzias said.

[Niko777]

Graffiti in Athens (by anarchists?)

"In Greece, Macedonia, Albania
the enemy is in banks and ministries"

[Solun]

Because of the name dispute.

I'm not aware of any name dispute in 1988.

To be accurate you should say 'in anticipation of creating a dispute'

The Macedonian state was proclaimed in 1944 after centuries of occupation and blood-letting. Many more lives were lost due to it not being granted independence.

In 1988, Northern Greece was renamed Macedonia in anticipation of creating a dispute.

[Carlin]

Андарти, активни војници и офицери, свештеници, неонацисти, „Спартанци“, дури и монахињи под националистички знамиња и мигранти со грчка национална свест.

URL:

http://www.alfa.mk/News.aspx?ID=128967#.Wnfqr6inHcs

[Phoenix]

https://twitter.com/JamesKerLindsay
...One of the people rallying today in Athens protesting the use of the name Macedonia by R.Macedonia.

That picture pretty much sums up the total absurdity of the greek side.

The fact that anybody can be greek and anybody can be 'Macedonian' with blessing from the 'greeks'...it's one of those bizarre cyclical arguments that gets nowhere, like the rabid dog trying to bite its own arse...

In another snapshot of any other random protester from the greek rally, that person is probably albanian, vlach, turkish or any other fragment of the ethnic kaleidoscope that is modern greece...and here they are in their drunken stupor still banging on relentlessly about racial purity, homogeneity and their shameless thievery of another culture.

[Amphipolis]

Your post 184 just denied this.

My post#184 was about the introduction of peripheries that started in 1986 and I really doubt it is related to the Macedonian Question.

The renaming of Ministry of Northern Greece to Ministry of Macedonia & Thrace is certainly related to the dispute of the time (I was alive, following politics and I can still remember my conversations with my friends).

I'm not aware of any name dispute in 1988.
To be accurate you should say 'in anticipation of creating a dispute'
The Macedonian state was proclaimed in 1944 after centuries of occupation and blood-letting. Many more lives were lost due to it not being granted independence.
In 1988, Northern Greece was renamed Macedonia in anticipation of creating a dispute.

It was a Ministry that was renamed, not Northern Greece itself. The term “Northern Greece” is a geographic description.

Most of the issues raised in your post are discussed here

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8370&highlight=sartzetakis&page=5

including how things escalated around 1988 (?) or Greece’s reaction about Socialist Macedonia in 1944. I have posted several times in pages 5-8.

[Amphipolis]

That picture pretty much sums up the total absurdity of the greek side.

The fact that anybody can be greek and anybody can be 'Macedonian' with blessing from the 'greeks'...it's one of those bizarre cyclical arguments that gets nowhere, like the rabid dog trying to bite its own arse...

In another snapshot of any other random protester from the greek rally, that person is probably albanian, vlach, turkish or any other fragment of the ethnic kaleidoscope that is modern greece...and here they are in their drunken stupor still banging on relentlessly about racial purity, homogeneity and their shameless thievery of another culture.

Haven't you seen a black woman before? At first I thought it was Carlin's joke, but the picture is real from yesterday's rally. It's already discussed around the web, but we still don't know who this woman is. Yet, there is so much interest that I believe in the next couple of days we'll have some news or an interview.

[Phoenix]

Haven't you seen a black woman before? At first I thought it was Carlin's joke, but the picture is real from yesterday's rally. It's already discussed around the web, but we still don't know who this woman is. Yet, there is so much interest that I believe in the next couple of days we'll have some news or an interview.

Yes, I have seen a 'black' woman before...whatever that means.

You've totally missed the point of my post...or you've simply just tried to ignore the elephant in the room...

If there was ever a picture that was worth a thousand words...that was it.