Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Gocka]

From my experience there a few glaring problems that stop true Macedonian activism and revolution in Macedonia.

It is my belief that Macedonians are utilitarian. They don't see the value in anything unless it can get them something tangible in return.

Most Macedonians lack principles by which they live by. Most revolutions require a principled stand, you cant make a principled stand if your are not capable of or willing to have set principles. This can even be linked to the above. Standing by something in principle sometimes requires you to give up present value in return for potential future value. Generally people who are Utilitarian have no principles because they are constantly changing based on whats useful at the present.

Shame, Macedonians are terrified of shame. They are always worried about what others will think of them. Most movements require you to throw caution to the wind and proudly step forward and stand by your assertions. Most Macedonians are way to conceded about thier image to put themselves out there in that kind of manner.

Pessimism/Victimism/Apathy

Macedonians are pessimistic by nature because they always feel like the victims of the world and that makes them apathetic. Some of it was ingrained in us by our Turkish masters, perpetuated by our Communist brothers, and solidified by our modern day political leaders. There is always someone to blame, there's always a reason to not do something, there is always no point of trying.

Add all these together and you have one hopeless bunch of people who cant get out of thier own way. It all starts with teaching the youth that they deserve better and that they should take it for themselves, that no one is going to give it to them.

Americans have this go getter type of arrogance. They punch above thier weight because they believe that they can.

Macedonians problems are systemic From the upbringing of children, to the schools, to the political system. It all helps to perpetuate this mess. It all has to come down in order to move forward.

[Risto the Great]

Americans have this go getter type of arrogance. They punch above thier weight because they believe that they can.

Macedonians problems are systemic From the upbringing of children, to the schools, to the political system. It all helps to perpetuate this mess. It all has to come down in order to move forward.

Good points. Don't forget 500 years of not measuring up to the Ottoman invaders as well.

I find the American sense of self belief mostly unfounded but terribly useful in defying the odds. I also think their ability to celebrate the success of others make them quite culturally unique in a way.

[Vangelovski]

Generally people who are Utilitarian have no principles because they are constantly changing based on whats useful at the present.

I don't think Macedonians are utilitarians - utilitarians still believe in the greater good for as many people as possible. Macedonians just believe in their own personal greater good.

[Gocka]

That's true, I guess you could say they all live in thier own little utilitarian worlds.

What really baffles me is that we have a country where half the country pisses and moans about how great communism was, not realizing that communism is a collectivist system. So we a country full of ex communists who do not want to act collectively yet want a collective socio-economic system.

I don't think Macedonians are utilitarians - utilitarians still believe in the greater good for as many people as possible. Macedonians just believe in their own personal greater good.

[Vangelovski]

That's true, I guess you could say they all live in thier own little utilitarian worlds.

What really baffles me is that we have a country where half the country pisses and moans about how great communism was, not realizing that communism is a collectivist system. So we a country full of ex communists who do not want to act collectively yet want a collective socio-economic system.

I think that's called mooch-off-everyone-else-ism

[George S.]

You k ow tom you are making a lot of sense a pity the others font as they are just skirting the issues.

[Volokin]

Greek MPs in EU Parliament Heat Up Debate over Macedonia

Greek MPs in EU Parliament Heat Up Debate over Macedonia
Wednesday, 21 January 2015


European Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee (AFET) held a heated debate on Macedonia, after Slovenian Member of Parliament Ivo Vajgl presented his draft resolution which again, for the ninth time in a row, calls on the European Council to finally open accession negotiations with Macedonia. Cypriot Greek and Bulgarian nationalist representatives gave their usual angry complaints against the proposal, which was supported by most of the speakers who pointed out the absurdity of the long-running Greek blockade of Macedonia’s integration.

Vajgl’s fellow MEP, Slovenian Alojz Peterle, said that the opening of accession negotiations for Macedonia will also push forward the process to solve the name issue, which Greece has raised to block Macedonia from joining NATO and the European Union. Peterle, who also chairs the Joint Parliament Committee between Macedonia and the European Union, stated he regrets Macedonian Parliament isn’t working in full, following the decision of the Social Democrat Alliance of Macedonia (SDSM) to boycott its work.

Cristian Dan Preda, a Romanian MEP, read comments from Monica Macovei, the shadow rapporteur for Macedonia, who said that she is pleased that Macedonia has pushed forward judicial reforms, while work needs to continue on judicial independence. Macovei’s conclusions also welcomed the fact that in fight against corruption, charges were filed against over 30 high ranked officials during 2014.

Richard Howitt, the British MEP who was rapporteur for Macedonia in the past European Parliament, said that as representative of the European PES Social Democrat Party, he supports the opening of accession negotiations.

“It’s shameful that we are the only European Union institution trying to solve the name issue, which is now used for political purposes. We are trying to find a consensus before the situation worsens and we need a tone of reconciliation. There are issues with corruption, freedom of media and the judiciary, but these are issues seen all over the region. These are not issues that should prevent the opening of accession negotiations”, Howitt said.

He added that PES will submit amendments to the report that will ask for securing wider support for the proposed amendments to the Macedonian constitution. Due to its boycott of Parliament, SDSM was out of the debate on the amendments, and Howitt asked for more clarity on the amendments that define marriage in traditional terms and allow the establishment of free financial zones in Macedonia.

Charles Tannock, from the European Conservatives and Reformists group, said that it is a shame to keep Macedonia in a limbo regarding its European integration since 2005, when it was first declared an EU candidate country. Emphasizing that Macedonia has a problem with its high unemployment rate, Tannock added that there are tensions between the Albanian and what he called the Slavic population of Macedonia, as well as an issue with the radicalization of Muslims with the fighting in the Middle East.

“There are political issues between the Government and the opposition which led to a boycott of Parliament. Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski’s Government has worked to created a favourable business climate and open the markets. EU Foreign Affairs representative Federica Mogherini said that she will focus on the Western Balkans, and work to find a solution to the name issue. Opening the EU accession negotiations will move reforms in Macedonia forward, and I believe that any other solution can create social tensions and political instability”, Tannock said, adding that he regrets that the name issue mediator Matthew Nimetz hasn’t accepted an invitation to explain where the talks stand before the European Parliament.

Comments became heated when Cypriot MEP Demetris Papadakis who is member of the Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats, said that the name dispute should be resolved by finding mutually acceptable solution and no pressure should be made otherwise it may never be resolved. Papadakis tried to lay the blame for the delay of negotiations on Macedonia, saying it should build democratic capabilities through reforms, while the name dispute is not the only problem for the country to open EU negotiations.
Cypriot MEP Eleni Theocharous added that Macedonia can’t start EU negotiations because of other problems, such as the issue of democracy, the rights of the minorities and judiciary and not due to the blockade of the name.
“There are other problems and even if the name issue is resolved, Macedonia would not be able to immediately start EU negotiations. And regarding the name issue, York is not the same as New York. We need to study history, read Aristotle and Plato and learn about what happened in the WWI and WWII and in the period of Tito. It is also important to be informed about the actions of former Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki who put an illegal flag on Mount Olympus”, Teocharous said said.
Joining in with the Greek MEPs, Bulgarian nationalist representative Angel Dzambaski, in his remarks, also asked that Macedonia respects the right of ethnic Bulgarians to self*-determination and to form a political party.
Spanish MEP Javier Nart reacted after the Greek comments to say that the use of a ridiculous name like FYR Macedonia is unacceptable, and so is to have a dispute over whether the sun symbol can be put on Macedonia’s flag. Nart pleaded with his Greek colleagues to be reasonable. Slovakian MEP Eduard Kukan agreed, adding that Mogherini should be more involved to find a solution to the name issue.
David Cullen, who heads the Macedonian unit in the European Commission, answered that the Commission agrees that opening of accession negotiations would help maintain the pace of reforms in Macedonia, and increase the already high level of alignment of the legislative. Cullen said that main areas of concern are political influence over the institutions, independence of the judiciary and the situation in the media.
“The absence of the leading opposition party from Parliament is worrying and it is the responsibility of the Government and the opposition to make sure the debate comes back to the elected bodies”, Cullen said. He added that as soon as conditions are right, the Commission will restart the HLAD process, that allows talks with Macedonia on a number of issues even without opening the accession negotiations.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/26835/45/

http://english.republika.mk/?p=138988

European Commission refuses to respond on Samaras comments regarding Macedonia's identity.


So nothing exactly new, just the usual bullshit.

[makedonche]

Bunch of fu*kin tossers! We don't need their permission/acceptance or opinion on who we are or what our country is, as for Samaras saying Greece owns the name/history/identity.....he's the biggest fuc%in tosser of all of them! I look forward to him being replaced at the Sunday elections..couldn't get any worse in my view!

[makedonche]

Cypriot MEP Eleni Theocharous added that Macedonia can’t start EU negotiations because of other problems, such as the issue of democracy, the rights of the minorities and judiciary and not due to the blockade of the name.
“There are other problems and even if the name issue is resolved, Macedonia would not be able to immediately start EU negotiations. And regarding the name issue, York is not the same as New York. We need to study history, read Aristotle and Plato and learn about what happened in the WWI and WWII and in the period of Tito. It is also important to be informed about the actions of former Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki who put an illegal flag on Mount Olympus”, Teocharous said said.

Who is this fuc&in dellusional bitch? Somebody get her a copy of Polybius's writings and educate the ignorant fuc$!
"We need to study history"..........not we,you! you uneducated moron, and those are your good points, if you really want to know what I think, arrange a meeting and I'll tell you to your ugly face...fuc*in imbecile!

[David Edenden]

An Open Letter to Matthew Nimetz

An Open Letter to Matthew Nimetz to move the Macedonian Name Issue Forward

http://the-macedonian-tendency.blogspot.ca/2014/11/an-open-letter-to-matthew-nimetz.html

For the last 20 years, the policy of Macedonia was to cross its fingers and pray that the EU and US would do the right thing.

Has not worked

Here is a practical guide to move this issue forward

Share with friends, relatives in Macedonia and your local politicians and journalists, academics.

[Nikolaj]

Andrew Rossos??? Why him. I don't like his stance on history, well, Slavic migration.

[Vangelovski]

I didn't think anyone outside of the government (and UMD) was still promoting negotiations! Rather than negotiating the non-negotiable and then asking the world to vote on it (through the UN), how about we just declare the IA null and void and move on with our lives?

Same old conversation for the past 25 years...

[makedonche]

I didn't think anyone outside of the government (and UMD) was still promoting negotiations! Rather than negotiating the non-negotiable and then asking the world to vote on it (through the UN), how about we just declare the IA null and void and move on with our lives?

Same old conversation for the past 25 years...

Exactly right!

[George S.]

The Greece-Macedonia name dispute

The Greece-Macedonia name dispute
Posted in Daniel Serwer - April 20, 2015

http://www.peacefare.net/?p=22963

I spoke at Harvard Friday about the Greece-Macedonia name dispute, along with Matt Nimetz and Boshko Stankovski. Here are the speaking notes I used.

1. Thank you for that kind introduction. The opportunity to speak at Harvard Law School is truly an honor. Harvard’s Project on Negotiation is a mecca for all who would like to see disputes managed peacefully.


2. That is what Matt Nimetz has done for more than 20 years. I am honored to meet him. We should not minimize his extraordinary achievement: an issue that in the early 1990s threatened to throw Macedonia into the Balkans cauldron with Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo has steadily lost its saliency.


3. I confess that I’ve even referred to it as the most boring dispute in the Balkans and therefore promise to speak less than 20 minutes more about it.


4. Let’s start with the obvious: this dispute is not really about the name. If it were, Greeks would long ago have accepted my citing the 1257 places in the United States that use the name “Macedonia” as dispositive. They would celebrate, not denigrate, the compliment from their neighbor.


5. Washington, DC was founded explicitly as the “new Rome.” I’ve never met an Italian who objected. The Italian government has even donated a few statues to beef up that image.


6. There were, however, already a lot of Americans dressed in togas adorning statuary hall in the Capitol, a building that is a blatant 18th-century attempt to imitate the glory of the ancients. Not to mention the National Gallery’s rip-off of the coffered ceiling of the Pantheon.


7. No, if this dispute were about the name and the statues, Greeks would be pleased that a non-Greek people who have come to occupy land that was once ancient Paeonia have adopted Greek antecedents as their ideal.


8. But if it is not about the name, what is it about?


9. Like many Balkan conflicts, it is about identity and territory. My inbox and my blog are chock a block full of messages from Greeks accusing modern-day Macedonians of “stealing” their Greek identity and having designs on their territory.


10. It is hard for me to imagine identity theft of this sort. If you are confident of your national identity, no one can take it from you. The official name of Mexico is Estados Unidos…Mexicanos. No one in the United States worries about that, though some Mexicans do. We have a state called New Mexico. Neither Mexicans nor gringos worry about that either.


11. Today, Mexicans and Americans are confident of their identity and unconcerned about designs on their territory.


12. Greeks are not.


13. They have precious little reason to worry about their territory. Macedonia’s constitution now includes a provision ruling out irredentist ambitions. I’ve never met a Macedonian who had any.


14. The problem is more subtle than that. Greece does not want to acknowledge the existence of a “Macedonian” minority on its territory, fearing that would lead to territorial and other claims. Greece feels the same way about Albanians and many other minorities, which are simply not recognized under Greek law and practice.


15. This gives us a hint of the deeper problem: identity. Strong assertions of national identity come from insecurity about national identity. Why do such gigantic American flags fly over car dealerships all over America? Because we are a diverse and varied lot, many of whom drive Japanese and Korean cars. I even have Greek correspondents who have informed me that we are not really a nation because we don’t share a genetic or cultural heritage.


16. The fact is that modern-day Greeks show no more genetic sign of descent from the ancient Greeks than do other peoples in the Balkans. I understand there is only one exception: the Vlachs, a people most Americans have never heard of, who do have DNA that includes modestly more genetic markers from the ancients.


17. The fact is that all the Balkans peoples are mixed, despite their bold claims to ethnic and genetic purity. The barbarian and Slavic invasions thoroughly inundated prior civilizations.


18. What modern day Greece has from the ancients is not descent but rather language and culture. Neither is threatened by Macedonia being called Macedonia, especially as the language of Macedonia is a Slavic one and the country’s official name is the Republic of Macedonia.
19. No one can confuse that with Ancient Makedon, which was not a republic.


20. So to make a long story short, I am not neutral—as Matt Nimetz must be—on this name question. I believe in the right of people to call themselves what they want, so long as that is not used to harm others. I see no harm to Greece from Macedonia being called Macedonia.


21. But life is full of compromises. The original compromise in this case was reached in 1995, when Athens and Skopje agreed in the Interim Accord that the country I call Macedonia could enter international organizations as The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, The FYROM. It did just that for ten years and more.


22. So when it was ready to enter NATO in 2008 it was prepared to do so with that appellation.


23. Greece blocked The FYROM’s accession to NATO.

24. Skopje took Greece to the International Court of Justice, whose 15/1 decisions were unequivocal: Greece had violated the Interim Accord, The FYROM had not, and it should be allowed to enter NATO as such.


25. A law-abiding country at this point would yield. Greece did not. Instead it made bogus claims that the ICJ had declined to enforce the decision. That is laughable, since the ICJ has no power to enforce its decisions on sovereign states but made absolutely clear that the decision was legally binding.


26. I will readily admit that the United States does not always abide by ICJ decisions. That is America’s shame. The failure of Greece to abide by the ICJ decision is Greece’s shame.


27. But let’s get real: why does all this matter in a world where we’ve got ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Iran on the verge of nuclear weapons, China challenging its neighbors and Sunni Arab countries intervening against Shia in Yemen? There are a lot more important things to worry about.


28. It only matters because the name dispute, unworthy of your attention and mine, is blocking Macedonia from entering NATO and heightening interethnic tensions there.


29. Macedonian has met NATO’s entry requirements. Its troops have fought—under US command—in Afghanistan, where Macedonians have also guarded NATO headquarters.


30. The merits are clear: Macedonia belongs in NATO.


31. Meanwhile, Greece’s intransigence has brought out the worst in Macedonia. Prime Minister Gruevski seems hell bent on provoking Athens with statues, names, a triumphal arch. Without a settlement, it serves his domestic political interests to do so.


32. The country’s Albanians regret the delay in entering NATO, which they regard as vital to their security, and fear that Macedonian nationalism will someday turn on them.


33. So what we’ve got is a well-managed conflict—Matt Nimetz has done a great job for many years—over an unimportant issue—the name—that arises from a deeper insecurity about identity and is causing serious inter-ethnic tensions within one of the parties to the dispute.


34. The dispute has been so well managed for so many years that it is becoming harder to resolve.


35. But there are consequences. This is no way to run an Alliance. There is a need get beyond the current impasse. My job now is to suggest ways we might do it.


36. I have to question whether the UN mediator is still a good approach to the deeper issues of insecurity and territory that underlie this dispute.


37. Or, alternatively, would we be better off if Athens and Skopje had to resolve the issues—whatever they may be—directly with each other?


38. This is in no way meant to reflect negatively on what Matt has done—and accomplished. We are a lot better off today than 20 years ago, and for that we should count ourselves fortunate.


39. But we haven’t got another 20 years. It is clear enough that this issue is contributing to destabilization of Macedonia, which will get worse if progress is not made.


40. Would a solution come faster if the United States stopped telling everyone that this issue has to be settled before Macedonia gets NATO membership? Washington could instead insist on The FYROM becoming a member at the Summit in Warsaw next year.


41. Would it come faster if Berlin made it clear to Athens that it wants the issue resolved?


42. Would it come faster if the UN came out of its neutral posture and instead came down unequivocally on the side of implementing the binding agreement of the International Court of Justice?


43. Would a solution come faster in direct, face-to-face negotiations?


44. I don’t mean to suggest that I know all the answers to these difficult questions. They are not intended to be rhetorical but real.


45. In a world with many more important issues, we should be trying to wrap this dispute up and move on to other, more pressing matters.

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.mia.mk/en/Inside/RenderSingleNewsNewsCategory/61/132873828

Nimetz: Time to solve the name issue

Athens, 2 November 2015 (MIA) - It is time to solve the name issue, says United Nations mediator Matthew Nimetz in an interview with Greek daily "Kathimerini".

"The refugee problem, which has a big effect on the two countries, the rise of terrorist threats in the region, as well as the economic difficulties in Southeast Europe, are additional reasons why a solution is of essential significance. The solution will open the door for improved cooperation, a stronger Euro-Atlantic approach to solution of regional issues and is in the interest of both countries", says Nimetz.

He says it is time to focus on the issue following last year's standstill due to other important developments in the countries. "I am absolutely convinced the problem can be solved and benefit both states. This is not a case of one side winning and the other losing. A solution can be beneficial for both countries, covering the national objectives that both sides consider important", stresses Nimetz and adds that leaders should be involved towards a swifter solution.

According to him, the name of the country should contain the term "Macedonia", but also "a reasonable qualifier", a geographic qualifier that would secure the country's dignity, but also separate it from the large region of Macedonia that is part of Greece. Nimetz also says there should be an agreement over the "secondary name aspects", such as the range of its use and the interim period, which can be solved through serious talks in good will. He highlights there must be a belief that there is no issue of territorial pretensions, the identity of the people involved must be respected, along with the cultural heritage of all citizens.

Nimetz implies that an accelerated NATO integration process is of key significance, as well as support in establishing a certain timeframe for start of the EU accession process. "A meeting between the two prime ministers will be useful at one point, better sooner than later", says Nimetz, adding that after meeting them at the last UN General Assembly, he believes "they definitely know how to negotiate". "They defend the national interests of their respective countries, but also have a strategic vision and political courage to find a solution", stresses the UN mediator.

Regarding the United States' approach in the name issue, Nimetz says he does not speak on the behalf of the U.S. in this stage of his career. "However, I can say that the United States have a strong interest in the issue's settlement. They have a firm policy over Greece's progress as an ally and a friend and see the country as a key factor of peace and stability in the region. They are very concerned for the stability of Southeast Europe in this difficult period. After the breakup of Yugoslavia, the U.S. has supported Macedonia by promoting democratic values and processes, economic development, its security, stability and territorial integrity. In this context, the U.S. give high priority to the country's Euro-Atlantic integration process, always in compliance with the rules and procedures", adds Nimetz.

Asked about plans to visit the countries, the UN mediator says he has not come for a year because "other urgent issues dominated in the region". However, Nimetz is in continual communication with both sides, expressing hope he will visit Macedonia and Greece very soon. Macedonia received the EU candidate-status a decade ago and has obtained a recommendation to open accession talks since 2009, but unable to launch them due to the Greek veto at the European Council. Greece has also prevented Macedonia from joining NATO since the 2008 Bucharest summit.

November 2015, and still the same old garbage from this useless and overpaid fool. Same old contradictions too. Asking Macedonia to change its national identity while at the same time claiming that our identity should be respected. How does that work?