Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Amphipolis]

THe fact is the greeks have a lot at stake as people are asking the question where are the greek makedonoij????

Why don't they throw a stone?

[George S.]

They won't throw a stone as a lot is at stake.Let me give you an example one of your minsters wanted to defect which is going to be nameless.He was going to spill the beans on the whole Greek crcus.He actually ostracised himself from greece as he knew the secret service was after him.He didn't dare say anything as whils't he was in greece but only after he went to the west.So throwing the proverbial stone is not the answer.The greek macedonians are greek but not macedonian.not the real thing. So amphipolis you used to be sweet sixteen and you come back as amphipolis.

[Amphipolis]

A nameless Greek minister wanted to defect... to the West? Well, we're... sosialists but not exactly Soviet Union.

[spitfire]

Of course Greece is a socialist country. The collectiveness in taxation and the attitude of Samaras as the one the only, after him the chaos, Godzilla will come out of the sea while the Santorini volcano will explode when aliens attack us from outer space, if he is not in power, makes.... Stalin blush!

Who was this minister George S.?

[Soldier of Macedon]

But Eire is also used as a distinction.

Where it counts on an international level it is Ireland. It should be no different for Macedonia.

In this case neither the Irish model works because Northern Ireland is not part of the republic of Ireland or a sovereign state.

It works perfectly. Ireland / Macedonia (Countries), Northern Ireland / Southern Macedonia (Regions in other countries).

Meaning South Macedonia, or Aegean Macedonia? Isn't it already used to describe this part of Macedonia?

Not officially.

Inside a country the name used is simply Macedonia. Just like Thrace. That doesn't mean there is no other land that is Thrace. It's how you call provinces inside a country. I don't see any relation to the name dispute.

Your kinsmen do.

How can the identity be changed when there is macedonia in the name with a geographical determination? Are North Koreans not Koreans? Even North Cyprus which hasn't been recognised by anyone except turkey as a state, is universally recognised as having Cypriots. Cyprus and Greece included.

Don't pretend to be naive. If it became "Northern Macedonia" then the Macedonians in the republic will eventually become known as "Northern Macedonians". Such a divide is completely unacceptable when it comes to our identity because not every Macedonian is from the republic but every Macedonian has the right to call it their home. The Republic of Macedonia is the only independent part of historical Macedonia and is therefore considered the national state of all Macedonians around the world. The name must be Macedonia only.

That doesn't answer my question about the rights. It's repetitive of the above.

Yes, it does. If I was a Greek I wouldn't feel my rights are being impeded based on what I wrote.

I gave this thread a read, approximately 50 pages. I see that from your perspective you don't trust Greece mainly and you find every suggestion Greece makes, suspicious.

We find the suggestions irrelevant and stupid because country (A) is being told by country (B) what to call themselves. Put any country in any of the brackets and it will sound just as stupid. Macedonia has the right to retain its integrity and shouldn't have to change its name to appease a bunch of misled or racist morons. Period. If you want to change a name, do it in your own country like I suggested. Otherwise, grow up and move on to more important issues that are impacting the Balkan region. This discussion has just about run its course. You are aware of our reasons and our perceptions. I suggest you start looking for another topic to discuss and stop looking for ways on how we should change the name of our state, because your persistence with this is beginning to sound chauvinistic and you're starting to push your luck.

[George S.]

we dont have any problem with the name ,you got a problem coz you stole 51 percent of macedonia you are guilty as and don't want the world to know .

[Nikolaj]

Don't pretend to be naive. If it became "Northern Macedonia" then the Macedonians in the republic will eventually become known as "Northern Macedonians". Such a divide is completely unacceptable when it comes to our identity because not every Macedonian is from the republic but every Macedonian has the right to call it their home. The Republic of Macedonia is the only independent part of historical Macedonia and is therefore considered the national state of all Macedonians around the world. The name must be Macedonia only.

Hands down correct and couldn't be explained better. It doesn't even need to take what ethnicity the ancient Macedonians were and how the ethnic makeup of the country progressed throughout history.

It also doesn't make sense to call Macedonia 'Northern Macedonia' when there's no Southern Macedonian region in Greece... The southern most point is 'Central Macedonia'.

[spitfire]

Where it counts on an international level it is Ireland. It should be no different for Macedonia.
It works perfectly. Ireland / Macedonia (Countries), Northern Ireland / Southern Macedonia (Regions in other countries).

Ireland has two official names. Not one. Here's a case where it counts



So, I don't think that the Irish model is something worth discussing, since it's completely out of the proposals discussed in the talks. I'm pretty sure that this option has been rejected too.

Not officially.

Your kinsmen do.

Both correct. How do the Albanians call north Epirus inside their country?

Don't pretend to be naive. If it became "Northern Macedonia" then the Macedonians in the republic will eventually become known as "Northern Macedonians". Such a divide is completely unacceptable when it comes to our identity because not every Macedonian is from the republic but every Macedonian has the right to call it their home. The Republic of Macedonia is the only independent part of historical Macedonia and is therefore considered the national state of all Macedonians around the world. The name must be Macedonia only.

Well, not really. They will be macedonians and the distinction will be only in a geographical sense. Just like Korea.

Yes, it does. If I was a Greek I wouldn't feel my rights are being impeded based on what I wrote.

No it didn't. Now it does. So if Greece chose to be called macedonia, it would be its right.

We find the suggestions irrelevant and stupid because country (A) is being told by country (B) what to call themselves. Put any country in any of the brackets and it will sound just as stupid. Macedonia has the right to retain its integrity and shouldn't have to change its name to appease a bunch of misled or racist morons. Period. If you want to change a name, do it in your own country like I suggested. Otherwise, grow up and move on to more important issues that are impacting the Balkan region. This discussion has just about run its course. You are aware of our reasons and our perceptions. I suggest you start looking for another topic to discuss and stop looking for ways on how we should change the name of our state, because your persistence with this is beginning to sound chauvinistic and you're starting to push your luck.

Of course, I don't expect you to see me as anything else. That would be way too difficult for someone who thinks of a greek by default evil.
I also expect that you have every reason not to trust Greece.
The dead end usually is reached like this. Lack of trust on both sides.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ireland has two official names. Not one. Here's a case where it counts

You're clutching at straws. The official name is Eire in Irish, and Ireland in English. In our case, the official name is Makedonija in Macedonian, and Macedonia in English.

So, I don't think that the Irish model is something worth discussing, since it's completely out of the proposals discussed in the talks. I'm pretty sure that this option has been rejected too.

The treachery of the Macedonian government for even participating in the so-called "name dispute" is no secret. For most Macedonians though, the Irish model is the only example worthy of consideration aside from Greece backing off.

How do the Albanians call north Epirus inside their country?

I couldn't care less what you or they call it. Epirus is not a state. Macedonia is. Macedonia has more of a reason to demand that Greece changes the name of its region rather than the opposite. Yet Macedonia doesn't demand such a thing because it isn't under the sway of demented racists like its southern neighbour.

Well, not really. They will be macedonians and the distinction will be only in a geographical sense. Just like Korea.

Yes, really. You are assuming something from the outside looking in and your viewpoint is incorrect. Our position on this has been made perfectly clear. Move on.

So if Greece chose to be called macedonia, it would be its right.

No, it wouldn't be its right because like I pointed out earlier, your people do not identify their ethnicity, nationality, state or language as Macedonian. It would be a decision made based on spite. But again, that will never happen, so stop wasting my time with these increasingly stupid scenarios.

That would be way too difficult for someone who thinks of a greek by default evil.

I don't think of Greeks as evil by default. I think any Greek that wants to force the Macedonians to change their identity as a chauvinistic idiot.

Lack of trust on both sides.

Lack of trust exists because people like you think it is OK to tell people like me it is OK to change my identity. I told you one time, and now I am telling for the last time. Look for another topic. Or you will be looking for another forum to express your derogatory suggestions that no self-respecting Macedonian wishes to entertain. This discussion ends now. Continue to broach the subject, and you will see the limit of our tolerance.

[spitfire]

Alright SoM, I see that you think of me as a chauvinistic pig and that I'm making suggestions, as if I'm the one in charge of the talks.
But anyway, since you don't want me to continue, I won't.

Just one question if you will, out of curiocity of the treachery government.
From what I have seen so far, the interim agreement has worked for macedonia over the years. I mean that over the years the stance of Greece has changed and most likely it'll change again towards the acceptance of the name used as macedonia. It has led to Greece's conviction in the international court if I'm not mistaken or using the wrong terminology.

Do you think that this is treachery because there was another way, quicker, more feasible, less treachery?
The reason I'm asking is because I think that the name dispute is in the way of macedonia in the EU and Nato membership, otherwise I'm not sure macedonia would ever bother discussing about its name.
I will not answer back of course.

[Nikolaj]

Alright SoM, I see that you think of me as a chauvinistic pig and that I'm making suggestions, as if I'm the one in charge of the talks.
But anyway, since you don't want me to continue, I won't.

You see, continuity of arrogance. You took that passport and showed it if it were a fact, and just assumed it was what you pushed in your agenda.
Even the first time I saw your post with the passport I already worked out that it was pretty much the same word just in a different language.
That didn't come twice to your head because all you care is to prove your point, rather than validifying your point.


I want you to continue Spitfire
(sarcasm)

[Soldier of Macedon]

Alright SoM, I see that you think of me as a chauvinistic pig and that I'm making suggestions, as if I'm the one in charge of the talks.

Whether you're in charge of the talks or not is irrelevant. The mere fact that you think you have the right to tell me how to identify qualifies you as a chauvinist. I would never ask anybody to change their ethno-national identity. No reasonable person should.

It has led to Greece's conviction in the international court if I'm not mistaken or using the wrong terminology.

Macedonia took Greece to court for not abiding by the IA, which means, for not accepting Macedonia as FYROM in international organisations. Despite the fact that the ICJ ruling is not legally binding, I don't know what is more ironic; Macedonia complaining about Greece not calling it FYROM or Greece not accepting Macedonia as FYROM.

Do you think that this is treachery because there was another way, quicker, more feasible, less treachery?

It is treachery because they allowed somebody else to force them to change their national identity on the world stage. If they demonstrated a shred of integrity back when Greece first spat the dummy this problem wouldn't exist in the manner it does today. Macedonia may have been a pariah for a little while, but Greece would have been under much more pressure to accept the country by the international community. Instead, by showing themselves as fickle traitors, our politicians demonstrated their willingness to gamble the Macedonian identity, which in turn has emboldened Greece and the international community to continue making unreasonable demands. Nobody respects a spineless group of people that are prepared to compromise on that which is most sacred to their nation.

The reason I'm asking is because I think that the name dispute is in the way of macedonia in the EU and Nato membership, otherwise I'm not sure macedonia would ever bother discussing about its name.

Remove the stupidity of Greek politicians from the equation, the "name dispute" does not exist, nor do any obstacles for Macedonia's progression into the EU and NATO.

[George S.]

The real solution is for greece to accept macedonia's name that its a constitutional name and to live with it,Macedonia does not pose anty threat to greece.Macedonia should be allowed to join nato or eu uninpeded by greece.
The dispute is not really a dispute but a way for greece to humiliate macedonia and to foce her to change their name.

[Amphipolis]

The real solution is for greece to accept macedonia's name that its a constitutional name and to live with it,Macedonia does not pose anty threat to greece.Macedonia should be allowed to join nato or eu uninpeded by greece.

That's not exactly a solution for Greece. This is (officially) a dispute about the name Macedonia/Macedonian. Issues like history, identity, borders etc. are simply underlying.

The dispute is not really a dispute but a way for greece to humiliate macedonia and to foce her to change their name.

Since you've said this countless times

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dispute

[Nikolaj]

That's not exactly a solution for Greece. This is (officially) a dispute about the name Macedonia/Macedonian. Issues like history, identity, borders etc. are simply underlying.

Since you've said this countless times
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dispute

I don't see it as a dispute.
It's a dispute based upon the name of a peoples identity, which is unethical to enforce as a dispute in the first place.
This does not help Greece's image, it'll be the laughing stock of the future without a doubt.