Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[spitfire]

Spitfire, the Greek government (and most Greeks) do not believe there is a Macedonian ethnicity or language. They believe Macedonian is the name of a Greek tribe and a dialect of Greek. It is for this reason that the Greek government opposes the use of the name "Macedonia", as it would imply a "Macedonian" ethnos. It is for this reason that the Greek government wants a geographical qualifier in the name Macedonia when used to describe the RoM.

The purpose of this is to deny our Macedonian ethnos. So if Macedonia were to accept a geographical qualifier, we could only identify ourselves as people living in what is part of a region of historic Macedonia. This negates our ethnos.

This is unacceptable to us.

Good insight, however by using Macedonia in a geographical sense, doesn't prohibit:

a. The indisputable fact that generations after generations of your people were living in macedonia.
b. The fact that by this you are really macedonian.
c. Anyone raised in the macedonian traditions to be regarded macedonian, after all this is how all modern states were formulated.
d. The reconciliation of Greece with the terminology.

I'm sure there are more.

[Philosopher]

a. The indisputable fact that generations after generations of your people were living in macedonia.
b. The fact that by this you are really macedonian.

The problem with this approach is that it does not work. First, the only reason this dispute exists in the first place is that the Greek government believes the name “Macedonia” is Greek, that the language spoken by the ancient Macedonians was Greek, and that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks. The Greek government does not believe that today's Macedonians are “Macedonians” because they live in Macedonia because the Greek government believes we are ethnic Slavs living in part of historic Macedonia. This does not make us Macedonians. The problem is that we believe we descend, imperfectly, from the ancient Macedonians, and have always identified as Macedonian. The Greek government believes we arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century and have no connection whatsoever to ancient Macedonia.

You cannot divorce ancient history from the modern day name dispute.

Anyone raised in the macedonian traditions to be regarded macedonian, after all this is how all modern states were formulated.

The Greek government believes historic Macedonian traditions are Greek. We are not Greek. The Greek government believes we are Slavs with Slavic traditions.

The reconciliation of Greece with the terminology.

Greece only accepts a geographic qualifier which denies our ethnic identity. Or a “Slavic” qualifier.

[spitfire]

The problem with this approach is that it does not work. First, the only reason this dispute exists in the first place is that the Greek government believes the name “Macedonia” is Greek, that the language spoken by the ancient Macedonians was Greek, and that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks. The Greek government does not believe that today's Macedonians are “Macedonians” because they live in Macedonia because the Greek government believes we are ethnic Slavs living in part of historic Macedonia. This does not make us Macedonians. The problem is that we believe we descend, imperfectly, from the ancient Macedonians, and have always identified as Macedonian. The Greek government believes we arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century and have no connection whatsoever to ancient Macedonia.

You cannot divorce ancient history from the modern day name dispute.

The Greek government believes historic Macedonian traditions are Greek. We are not Greek. The Greek government believes we are Slavs with Slavic traditions.

Greece only accepts a geographic qualifier which denies our ethnic identity. Or a “Slavic” qualifier.

All these mean one thing. That the real problem is what Greece thinks. Am I right?

[Philosopher]

All these mean one thing. That the real problem is what Greece thinks. Am I right?

Yes.

A more accurate appraisal, however, is that we have different interpretations of history and we are both very zealous about history.

I understand the Greek position. They view us as ethnic Slavs who arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century--many hundreds of years after Alexander the Great. Ancient Macedonian inscriptions are in Greek; the names of the ancient Macedonians are written in Greek and perhaps in many instances are "pure Greek names". Some ancient historians describe them as Greek and modern historians generally regard them as Greek. And Greeks, as well as many Western historians, believe our Macedonian identity began to take shape in the 19th century.

With this is a background, it is obvious why the Greek government prefers a geographical qualifier instead of Macedonia.

We obviously have a very different interpretation of history Spitfire. Unfortunately, for us, we are not united in this regard, and our positions are not widely known or accepted.

[spitfire]

Yes.

Thank you for the clear answer.

So it does matter and the reason is mainly because Greece stands on the way of important issues for Macedonia. NATO and the EU for instance.
Therefore the "who cares what Greece thinks" or "Greece has no say in this" probably does not apply. And the reason is quite obvious as nobody is alone in this planet.

[fatso]

Time is on your side. Ignore Greece.

[Philosopher]

Thank you for the clear answer.

So it does matter and the reason is mainly because Greece stands on the way of important issues for Macedonia. NATO and the EU for instance.
Therefore the "who cares what Greece thinks" or "Greece has no say in this" probably does not apply. And the reason is quite obvious as nobody is alone in this planet.

No, it does not matter what Greece says or does. We will call ourselves Macedonian and the nation-state the "Republic of Macedonia" regardless of what our neighbor has to say. We could not care less what the Hellenic Republic does or does not.

I am against EU membership and NATO.

Greece's actions are an international embarrassment.

[spitfire]

No, it does not matter what Greece says or does. We will call ourselves Macedonian and the nation-state the "Republic of Macedonia" regardless of what our neighbor has to say. We could not care less what the Hellenic Republic does or does not.

I am against EU membership and NATO.

In this case, would you say that this opinion is expressing the opinion of every macedonian? Membership of EU and NATO included.

[Risto the Great]

If the people identify as Thracians in an ethno-national sense, and they are in charge of their own state, they have every right to call it (the Republic of) Thrace. Any other parts of historical Thrace which belong to other modern states can either retain their names as regions within those states or apply a geographical or other qualifier themselves. That is the logical thing to do as the name of a sovereign state shouldn't be held ransom to the name of a mere region within another state.

Agreed. And the United Nations agrees and blah blah blah. But let's not forget the Macedonians (and others) who fought for a free Macedonia during the time of the forging of modern nations. Greeks only ever wanted to make Macedonia Greek. Let us not kid ourselves.

[Philosopher]

In this case, would you say that this opinion is expressing the opinion of every macedonian? Membership of EU and NATO included.

I can only speak for myself, but I would state that no Macedonian cares what the Hellenic Republic does or does not. As for EU and NATO membership, there is a greater degree of differences.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Unlike the case with Ireland, Macedonia does not use a term such as the Irish use; Eire.

In our case, it is Makedonija (MK), Macedonia (EN). In their case, it is Eire (IR), Ireland (EN). In most international affairs Ireland is referred to as Ireland, not Eire. When Irish representatives are seated at the UN they are next to Iraq and Israel, not Egypt and El Salvador.

In every case I can think of, there is a distinction, a geographical one.

Fine. Then why aren't you trying to convince your own kinsmen to accept a geographical qualifier for the Macedonian part of Greece?

I am a logical person, I don't reject the idea that you are macedonian. It has been established, according to my mind at least. And from there I try to think possible resolve on the matter.

The view of all Macedonians here and most Macedonians around the world is a complete rejection of any change to the identity of our state and people. You're ignoring this by persistently proposing alternative 'solutions'. Where is the logic in that?

So does the Republic of Thrace, but this is in terms of being in the shoes of the other side. How would (hypothesis) you feel in such a case? Inalienable right of the people of Greece I guess according to your thesis.

The ethnicity, nationality, state and language of the Greeks in Greece is identified as Greek. Their claim (for some, not all) to that which can be identified as Macedonian is regional. For the Macedonians in Macedonia, all of the above is identified as Macedonian. Thus, no Greek has a genuine cause for complaint because the existence of a Macedonian state and people does not not impede on the rights of Greeks as Greeks, nor does it prevent Greeks (or any other people in that geographical region, for that matter) from celebrating the ancient Macedonian heritage of the region. You need to put yourself in the shoes of the other side to see how ludicrous the situation is from a Macedonian perspective.

[spitfire]

In our case, it is Makedonija (MK), Macedonia (EN). In their case, it is Eire (IR), Ireland (EN). In most international affairs Ireland is referred to as Ireland, not Eire. When Irish representatives are seated at the UN they are next to Iraq and Israel, not Egypt and El Salvador.

Point taken. But Eire is also used as a distinction. Also Northern Ireland uses a geographical determination.

Fine. Then why aren't you trying to convince your own kinsmen to accept a geographical qualifier for the Macedonian part of Greece?

Meaning South Macedonia, or Aegean Macedonia? Isn't it already used to describe this part of Macedonia? Inside a country the name used is simply Macedonia. Just like Thrace. That doesn't mean there is no other land that is Thrace. It's how you call provinces inside a country. I don't see any relation to the name dispute.

The view of all Macedonians here and most Macedonians around the world is a complete rejection of any change to the identity of our state and people. You're ignoring this by persistently proposing alternative 'solutions'. Where is the logic in that?

How can the identity be changed when there is macedonia in the name with a geographical determination? Are North Koreans not Koreans? Even North Cyprus which hasn't been recognised by anyone except turkey as a state, is universally recognised as having Cypriots. Cyprus and Greece included.

The ethnicity, nationality, state and language of the Greeks in Greece is identified as Greek. Their claim (for some, not all) to that which can be identified as Macedonian is regional. For the Macedonians in Macedonia, all of the above is identified as Macedonian. Thus, no Greek has a genuine cause for complaint because the existence of a Macedonian state and people does not not impede on the rights of Greeks as Greeks, nor does it prevent Greeks (or any other people in that geographical region, for that matter) from celebrating the ancient Macedonian heritage of the region. You need to put yourself in the shoes of the other side to see how ludicrous the situation is from a Macedonian perspective.

That doesn't answer my question about the rights. It's repetitive of the above. Again how can a geographical determination be an obstacle to identifying, celebrating etc. macedonian identity?

[Stojacanec]

In every case I can think of, there is a distinction, a geographical one. North Korea, South Korea. North Cyprus, Cyprus.

Korean model wont work because Aegan Macedonia is not a soverign state.

Cyprus model wont work because Aegean Macedonia is not part of the Republic of Macedonia.

And that's just it, you can not give a living example anywhere in the world where this is allowed to happen.

I asked one of my relatives from Macedonia (just to waste 10 seconds of my life), what do you think of the name dispute? He replied "We like our name"

It's nothing more simple than that.

[spitfire]

Korean model wont work because Aegan Macedonia is not a soverign state.

Cyprus model wont work because Aegean Macedonia is not part of the Republic of Macedonia.

And that's just it, you can not give a living example anywhere in the world where this is allowed to happen.

I asked one of my relatives from Macedonia (just to waste 10 seconds of my life), what do you think of the name dispute? He replied "We like our name"

It's nothing more simple than that.

In this case neither the Irish model works because Northern Ireland is not part of the republic of Ireland or a sovereign state.

I gave this thread a read, approximately 50 pages. I see that from your perspective you don't trust Greece mainly and you find every suggestion Greece makes, suspicious.

[George S.]

Gigiven the situation in northern ireland why should macedonia be renamed to a different name.AFter all a name is a name.I notice the greeks think hey macedonia is stealing the greek name of makedonoij.THe greeks retaliate and call the macedonians skopijans.But who took what first.Greece does not want macedonia to use the word macedonia at all.Remember their little so called red line.Think about it The word Macedonia is the NAME oF A COUNTRY>BUT THE Greeks ONLY HAVE THE NAME OF A PROVINCE>ONLY THIS HAS BEEN CONCOCTED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.THe fact is the greeks have a lot at stake as people are asking the question where are the greek makedonoij????Ethnic macedonian greeks ANSWER there ARE NO Macedonian GREEKS .THEY ARE REALLY GREEKS MASQUEARADING AS macedonian.
BUT you got INDIGENOUS Macedonians in THE AEGEAN CALLED ENDOPI ORIGINAL SETTLERS.YEs the greeks have a lot at stake as they work out how to call their transplanted turk greeks from the 1920's.