Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

spitfire, sounds like a plan. As a gesture of goodwill, I propose the use of "Greece and Greeks" are immediately disallowed (never to be used again) and replaced with "Hellenic Republic and Hellenicans". Macedonia will be sure to consider following you in due course.

[Soldier of Macedon]

spitfire, sounds like a plan. As a gesture of goodwill, I propose the use of "Greece and Greeks" are immediately disallowed (never to be used again) and replaced with "Hellenic Republic and Hellenicans". Macedonia will be sure to consider following you in due course.

Even that isn't equivalent because the term 'Hellenic' is still an Anglicised version of 'Elliniki'.

[Risto the Great]

Even that isn't equivalent because the term 'Hellenic' is still an Anglicised version of 'Elliniki'.

C'mon man, you know what I mean. Just a bullshit example for a more bullshit suggestion.

[Soldier of Macedon]

C'mon man, you know what I mean. Just a bullshit example for a more bullshit suggestion.

Yeah, I know

[spitfire]

spitfire, sounds like a plan. As a gesture of goodwill, I propose the use of "Greece and Greeks" are immediately disallowed (never to be used again) and replaced with "Hellenic Republic and Hellenicans". Macedonia will be sure to consider following you in due course.

Greece and greeks are not used officially. It's Hellenic and Hellenes.

Your suggestion of not using Greece and greeks doesn't sound bad to me. On the contrary, it would be great to have the world speak of Hellenes instead of Greeks.
Of course you can't do that with every person on earth, this is why we are talking about a name used in international affairs. Between states and organisations.

[spitfire]

Silly idea that has already been proposed and rejected. The Macedonian republic has the right to retain its name and neither you or any other Greek has the right to dictate terms to our people. Nobody here accepts any name change so spare us your suggestions.

It has? Damn! I didn't know that.

Don't get confused. We are not going to decide ourselves. I'm not talking about who is right or wrong. I'm talking about how a solution could apply in a way that both sides are happy.

Even that isn't equivalent because the term 'Hellenic' is still an Anglicised version of 'Elliniki'.

A term anglicised but the transcription is very distinctive. I'd ask you to give me a macedonian equivellant, since I don't speak macedonian, but if it has already been rejected, then it's no use.

[spitfire]

You slimy bastard, you've danced around the periphery since you first joined the forum, not drawing too much attention to yourself but you've belatedly shown your true colours...
Perhaps your side should adopt your suggestion...consider consulting George R. R. Martin and his fictional High Valyrian for inspiration...surely closing the 'case', once and for all...

Don't be mislead dude. If I was in charge, talks about the name would have ended decades ago and celebrations would be held instead.

What is your view about the greek proposal? The geographical term of macedonia. Meaning, the name macedonia be used but in a geographical sense.
Again, we are not the ones deciding. Remember that. Just try to put yurself in the talks. What would be your arguments against the greek proposal?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Don't get confused.

The confusion is yours for thinking we will actually care or entertain a Greek making recommendations on what our own name should be, even if it is on a forum and is inconsequential.

I'm talking about how a solution could apply in a way that both sides are happy.

The Macedonian side (and any other self-respecting 'side', for that matter) will never be happy with another side forcing them to change the ethno-national name of their state (and consequently, their identity), despite the treachery of their own government. So there is no point in talking about a non-existent utopian "solution" in which both sides would be "happy". Your side created this bullshit dispute in the false belief that our identity was fickle. It is your side that has a problem, not our side. What Greece is asking of Macedonia is not only unreasonable but it is a pathetic violation of human rights. Macedonians will remain Macedonians. The only solution is for Greece to back down.

[Phoenix]

Don't be mislead dude. If I was in charge, talks about the name would have ended decades ago and celebrations would be held instead.

I'm curious, what exactly would your solution have been?

What is your view about the greek proposal? The geographical term of macedonia. Meaning, the name macedonia be used but in a geographical sense.
Again, we are not the ones deciding. Remember that. Just try to put yurself in the talks. What would be your arguments against the greek proposal?

With all due respect, you can stick your (greek) proposals up your arse.

[spitfire]

The confusion is yours for thinking we will actually care or entertain a Greek making recommendations on what our own name should be, even if it is on a forum and is inconsequential.

The Macedonian side (and any other self-respecting 'side', for that matter) will never be happy with another side forcing them to change the ethno-national name of their state (and consequently, their identity), despite the treachery of their own government. So there is no point in talking about a non-existent utopian "solution" in which both sides would be "happy". Your side created this bullshit dispute in the false belief that our identity was fickle. It is your side that has a problem, not our side. What Greece is asking of Macedonia is not only unreasonable but it is a pathetic violation of human rights. Macedonians will remain Macedonians. The only solution is for Greece to back down.

Oh, a forum name decides that?
So to you, it is a matter of identity any change of the name. Even if it's a name that reflects a macedonian identity, using the name as it is (Macedonia) but using also geographical determination?

I'm curious, what exactly would your solution have been?
With all due respect, you can stick your (greek) proposals up your arse.

Wich way is it? You want to know the proposal before or after I stick it up my arse?

I'm not going to use the same attitude towards you, because I think you are just seing ghosts. It would be a proposal that does not deny a macedonian identity, since it has been established as such.
The other solution, has been rejected as I'm informed, therefore the anglicised version of the name closer to what it is in macedonian, is already out of the question.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Oh, a forum name decides that?

What does a "forum name" decide? Reformulate your question to make sense.

So to you, it is a matter of identity any change of the name.

Not just to me, but to all Macedonians here and most Macedonians around the world.

Even if it's a name that reflects a macedonian identity, using the name as it is (Macedonia) but using also geographical determination?

A geographical or any other qualifier is unnecessary and would only serve to negate the Macedonian identity. Besides, why the hell should we change our name just to appease your moron kinsmen who think they have the right to force another nation to bend to its stupid will?

[spitfire]

What does a "forum name" decide? Reformulate your question to make sense.

You said that it would be inconsequential and promted me to see the name of this forum. A forum name is not decisive. In fact no forum can be decisive of anything. It's just a place where people discuss.

Not just to me, but to all Macedonians here and most Macedonians around the world.

Of course, not just to you. I was using it in the plural, meaning every macedonian in the world.

A geographical or any other qualifier is unnecessary and would only serve to negate the Macedonian identity. Besides, why the hell should we change our name just to appease your moron kinsmen who think they have the right to force another nation to bend to its stupid will?

Let's suppose that there is a nation/state of Thracians created in eastern Thrace. Western Thrace, or part of it is under Greek jurisdiction. Would you find it proper this state to be called Thrace republic, or would you find it more proper to be called Republic of Eastern Thrace?
I think that's what the Greek thesis is all about.

With regard to inalienable rights, those of people wanting to call themselves whatever they choose, how would you find it if Greece changed its name into Macedonia? It had been proposed in the past, where there wasn't any convergence between the two sides.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You said that it would be inconsequential and promted me to see the name of this forum.

I said we don't care about your recommendation even if it is inconsequential.

A forum name is not decisive. In fact no forum can be decisive of anything.

Not decisive in what sense? What are you on about?

Let's suppose that there is a nation/state of Thracians created in eastern Thrace. Western Thrace, or part of it is under Greek jurisdiction. Would you find it proper this state to be called Thrace republic, or would you find it more proper to be called Republic of Eastern Thrace?

If the people identify as Thracians in an ethno-national sense, and they are in charge of their own state, they have every right to call it (the Republic of) Thrace. Any other parts of historical Thrace which belong to other modern states can either retain their names as regions within those states or apply a geographical or other qualifier themselves. That is the logical thing to do as the name of a sovereign state shouldn't be held ransom to the name of a mere region within another state. Again, refer to the Irish example, which is comparable - the state of the free and independent Irish is called Ireland, the UK occupied part of Ireland is called Northern Ireland. As much as I despise referring to Wikipedia when it comes to Macedonia given all the Greek and Bulgarian morons who have manipulated nearly every page relating to my people and history, the below information regarding Ireland is factual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland

The Constitution of Ireland provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". Under Irish statute law, Republic of Ireland (or Poblacht na hÉireann) is "the description of the State"[18] but not its official name. This official description was provided for in the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, which transferred the remaining duties of the monarch to an elected president. However, the name of the state in English remained Ireland. A change to the name of the state would require a constitutional amendment. In the United Kingdom however, the Ireland Act 1949 provided that Republic of Ireland may be used as a name for the Irish state (although it did not make use of that term mandatory).[19] Although initially accepted by the British government,[20] the name Ireland became a source of contention between the British and Irish governments. These concerns arose because part of the island of Ireland is in the United Kingdom and so its government regarded the name as inappropriate. In a 1989 case, a majority of the Irish Supreme Court expressed the view that Irish authorities should not enforce extradition warrants where they referred to the state by a name other than Ireland (in this case the warrants had used the name Éire).[21] As part of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, which resolved issues relating to Northern Ireland, the state dropped its claim to jurisdiction over the whole island of Ireland. Since that agreement, the United Kingdom has accepted and uses the name Ireland.

Macedonia as a state has already renounced any territorial aspirations towards the Macedonian part of Greece, so the Greek argument regarding Macedonian irredentism which is so often cited in the media is a baseless load of rubbish. You wish to present yourself as a logical person with a balanced view on this forum, then don't pretend that the Greek side isn't full of shit on this matter. It has created a farce because of its own insecurities and is almost totally responsible for this 20 year debacle. The only blame the Macedonian side shares is that it has allowed Greece to draw it into this shameful circus for so long.

With regard to inalienable rights, those of people wanting to call themselves whatever they choose, how would you find it if Greece changed its name into Macedonia? It had been proposed in the past, where there wasn't any convergence between the two sides.

That will never happen so let's not waste time on useless hypotheticals. Stay in the real world.

[spitfire]

I said we don't care about your recommendation even if it is inconsequential.

Not decisive in what sense? What are you on about?

Not decisive of the name dispute. It's a forum, people discuss issues, they don't decide on the issue.
I don't expect you to care.

If the people identify as Thracians in an ethno-national sense, and they are in charge of their own state, they have every right to call it (the Republic of) Thrace. Any other parts of historical Thrace which belong to other modern states can either retain their names as regions within those states or apply a geographical or other qualifier themselves. That is the logical thing to do as the name of a sovereign state shouldn't be held ransom to the name of a mere region within another state. Again, refer to the Irish example, which is comparable - the state of the free and independent Irish is called Ireland, the UK occupied part of Ireland is called Northern Ireland. As much as I despise referring to Wikipedia when it comes to Macedonia given all the Greek and Bulgarian morons who have manipulated nearly every page relating to my people and history, the below information regarding Ireland is factual:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland

Macedonia as a state has already renounced any territorial aspirations towards the Macedonian part of Greece, so the Greek argument regarding Macedonian irredentism which is so often cited in the media is a baseless load of rubbish. You wish to present yourself as a logical person with a balanced view on this forum, then don't pretend that the Greek side isn't full of shit on this matter. It has created a farce because of its own insecurities and is totally responsible for this 20 year debacle. The only blame the Macedonian side shares is that it has allowed Greece to draw it into this shameful circus for so long.

Unlike the case with Ireland, Macedonia does not use a term such as the Irish use; Eire. This brings us to the already rejected proposal of the use of a term that signifies through the language of a state, its nationality, or ethnic substance.
Turned upside down, North Ireland uses Northern Ireland, am I correct?
In every case I can think of, there is a distinction, a geographical one. North Korea, South Korea. North Cyprus, Cyprus.

I am a logical person, I don't reject the idea that you are macedonian. It has been established, according to my mind at least. And from there I try to think possible resolve on the matter. I'm not deciding on the matter, remember.

That will never happen so let's not waste time on useless hypotheticals. Stay in the real world.

So does the Republic of Thrace, but this is in terms of being in the shoes of the other side. How would (hypothesis) you feel in such a case? Inalienable right of the people of Greece I guess according to your thesis.

[Philosopher]

Spitfire, the Greek government (and most Greeks) do not believe there is a Macedonian ethnicity or language. They believe Macedonian is the name of a Greek tribe and a dialect of Greek. It is for this reason that the Greek government opposes the use of the name "Macedonia", as it would imply a "Macedonian" ethnos. It is for this reason that the Greek government wants a geographical qualifier in the name Macedonia when used to describe the RoM.

The purpose of this is to deny our Macedonian ethnos. So if Macedonia were to accept a geographical qualifier, we could only identify ourselves as people living in what is part of a region of historic Macedonia. This negates our ethnos.

This is unacceptable to us.