Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Gocka]

So let me get this straight.

I believe the Slavic Migration Theory is highly improbable.

I believe the ancient Macedonians were not Greek, but Macedonian.

I believe today's Macedonians have been in the Balkans for thousands of years, and are one of the oldest peoples in Europe.

I believe Macedonian should be called Macedonia (The Republic of Macedonia).

I believe Macedonians are Macedonians, and not "Slavs", "Slav Macedonians", FYROM,

I am Macedonian, all of my family is Macedonian, and you are asking me if I am Greek because I quoted some ignorant former Macedonian government officials?

What planet are you people on this forum on? Is this the twilight zone?

Haha I'll apologize on everyone's behalf then. I believe you. The thing is you came on and hit practically every controversial topic there was, so naturally everyone assumed it was with some kind of motive.

Welcome and I hope one day we can all look back on this and laugh about how we all gave you so much crap.

[Dejan]

I'm all for questioning the bs version of history. You ask questions unlike a Macedonian, as if you were born a Macedonian yesterday. If you can't see that, and everyone else can, who is to blame? Even if you were Greek I don't think many here would hold it against you.

There have been Greeks on this forum claiming the same thing as you, forgive me if I find your questions/words alerting.

[Redsun]

http://www.independent.mk/articles/7886/Former+Mediator+Robin+O%27Neal+Name+Issue+Has+to+be+Settled+in+UN+General+Assembly

Former Mediator Robin O'Neal: Name Issue Has to be Settled in UN General Assembly

You are Macedonians, and your language is Macedonian. After 20 years of unsuccessful negotiations Macedonia should seek recognition by the General Assembly for UN membership under its constitutional name, said Ambassador Robin O'Neal, the first mediator in the Greek Macedonian dispute for the "Voice of the People".

Regarding the statement of the Greek Prime Minister Antonis Samaras that Macedonian language is an invention made by the communists and he had never heard of such a language, the British diplomat, criticizes: .. "communism asserts to have invented many things, but I've never heard to have invented a language ".

In this respect, he explains that Samaras comments about Macedonian language only showed how hostile the attitude of the Greek government to Macedonia is.

"Perhaps he hopes that these statements will get him support from the nationalist elements from Bulgaria. This shows how bad it is for Macedonia to allow such fanciful dispute to be dragged on for years. It is getting more difficult to find a rational solution", says O'Neal.

Because of all this, he believes that Macedonia should seek assistance from the international community by addressing the General Assembly of the United Nations, which would express gratitude to Nimitz and his efforts over the past twenty years to settle the dispute, but also regrets that they have not led to any progress towards a solution.

"Macedonian Government is enormously grateful to the Nimetz, for all his deeds, but must regretfully conclude that, twenty years have passed without any progress, and that there are no prospects in finding a solution to the problem in that way. Therefore they propose to inform the Secretary General of the UN for this conclusion, and seek recognition by the General Assembly for Macedonia's membership in the UN under its constitutional name as decided by the Macedonians, who claimed that on September 8, 1991, on the Independence Day and is recognized by the international law."

He also referred to German Chancellor Angela Merkel comments about the possible compromise.

"It is right to seek compromise in situations with a real dispute. But in this case, there is no real dispute over the name Republic of Macedonia, as I have explained here, says O'Neal.

As for Macedonia's EU and NATO accession, the International Court of Justice ruled that under the Interim Accord between Greece and Macedonia, Macedonia has the right to apply to these organizations under FYROM and Greece can not oppose this", he adds.

"In this situation I think there is a commitment by the leading NATO and the EU countries, the U.S., Germany and UK to exert pressure on Greece to stop blocking Macedonia from becoming a member of these two organizations. This would reinforce stability in the region and would contribute to greater progress. Such admission of Macedonia to these organizations should be realized under the appropriate name in accordance with the international law: Republic of Macedonia", says Ambassador O'Neal decisively.

As to whether additional conditions for admission of Macedonia to the United Nations are in accordance with the articles of the UN Charter and about Nimetz comment in Skopje that UN do not negotiate about identities and that the mandate refers to the name Ambassador O'Neal says: ... "Macedonia is already a member of the UN. Greece believes that there is a dispute between the state and Macedonia over the name Republic of Macedonia. Under the international law, every state has the right to use the name chosen by the state. However, the UN called on both countries to resolve this dispute, and Nimetz has worked with great patience for many years as to find a solution acceptable to both countries. Throughout Greece was not ready to show interest in any name which would represent a kind of compromise. "

According to him Nimetz comments during each visit to Skopje, has been correct and reasonable. He hopes that Athens is sincerely willing to find a compromise, but he fears that we would have to conclude that there is no hope for Nimetz mediation success.

"The truth is that Greece does not want to see a solution to this issue, for reasons that are not entirely in the domain of internal Greek politics. For the last 24 years the name Macedonia has never done any harm to Greece, nor had a detrimental impact on the stability of Greece. In this situation the time has come for Macedonia to address the United Nations and explain that after 20 years this problem, which has never been a threat to international peace and security (Article 2 (3) of the UN Charter), and due to the wider interests for the stability in the Balkans should be subject to decision reached by voting in the General Assembly of the UN", says the British diplomat.

In other words, Macedonia should seek the UN General Assembly to accept Macedonia in the organization under the appropriate international name, Republic of Macedonia. He further suggests that this, will not make harder Macedonian joining the EU and NATO, but will facilitate the process,

In addition, according to the international law professor Igor Janev who is also an experienced researcher on the name issue, there is no political solution through negotiations with Greece over the name issue.

"Diplomatic recognition of this kind is impossible. Given that there is no political solution, the output must be requested by the UN General Assembly Resolution, which will change the denomination FYROM in the constitutional name of Republic of Macedonia or to initiate obtaining an advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice about the additional illegal Terms for Republic of Macedonia. By getting the Advisory Opinion of the International Court, and its acceptance by the UN General Assembly, the illegal reference should be replaced with the constitutional name Republic of Macedonia (by the Resolution), explains Janev in a statement for "Voice of the People."

[Gocka]

This has been suggested before many times, but unfortunately I don't think the suggestion below fits in with Macedonians internal politics as much as it doesn't fit Greece's internal politics. Gruevski, Samaras, and Nimetz have made careers out of dragging this out for 20 years.

Maybe if Macedonians in ROM and even in the diaspora, demanded that the government demand for the acronym to be removed, but no one really cares that much it seems.

Lets see if Gruevski reacts to this somehow.

http://www.independent.mk/articles/7...neral+Assembly

Former Mediator Robin O'Neal: Name Issue Has to be Settled in UN General Assembly

You are Macedonians, and your language is Macedonian. After 20 years of unsuccessful negotiations Macedonia should seek recognition by the General Assembly for UN membership under its constitutional name, said Ambassador Robin O'Neal, the first mediator in the Greek Macedonian dispute for the "Voice of the People".

Regarding the statement of the Greek Prime Minister Antonis Samaras that Macedonian language is an invention made by the communists and he had never heard of such a language, the British diplomat, criticizes: .. "communism asserts to have invented many things, but I've never heard to have invented a language ".

In this respect, he explains that Samaras comments about Macedonian language only showed how hostile the attitude of the Greek government to Macedonia is.

"Perhaps he hopes that these statements will get him support from the nationalist elements from Bulgaria. This shows how bad it is for Macedonia to allow such fanciful dispute to be dragged on for years. It is getting more difficult to find a rational solution", says O'Neal.

Because of all this, he believes that Macedonia should seek assistance from the international community by addressing the General Assembly of the United Nations, which would express gratitude to Nimitz and his efforts over the past twenty years to settle the dispute, but also regrets that they have not led to any progress towards a solution.

"Macedonian Government is enormously grateful to the Nimetz, for all his deeds, but must regretfully conclude that, twenty years have passed without any progress, and that there are no prospects in finding a solution to the problem in that way. Therefore they propose to inform the Secretary General of the UN for this conclusion, and seek recognition by the General Assembly for Macedonia's membership in the UN under its constitutional name as decided by the Macedonians, who claimed that on September 8, 1991, on the Independence Day and is recognized by the international law."

He also referred to German Chancellor Angela Merkel comments about the possible compromise.

"It is right to seek compromise in situations with a real dispute. But in this case, there is no real dispute over the name Republic of Macedonia, as I have explained here, says O'Neal.

As for Macedonia's EU and NATO accession, the International Court of Justice ruled that under the Interim Accord between Greece and Macedonia, Macedonia has the right to apply to these organizations under FYROM and Greece can not oppose this", he adds.

"In this situation I think there is a commitment by the leading NATO and the EU countries, the U.S., Germany and UK to exert pressure on Greece to stop blocking Macedonia from becoming a member of these two organizations. This would reinforce stability in the region and would contribute to greater progress. Such admission of Macedonia to these organizations should be realized under the appropriate name in accordance with the international law: Republic of Macedonia", says Ambassador O'Neal decisively.

As to whether additional conditions for admission of Macedonia to the United Nations are in accordance with the articles of the UN Charter and about Nimetz comment in Skopje that UN do not negotiate about identities and that the mandate refers to the name Ambassador O'Neal says: ... "Macedonia is already a member of the UN. Greece believes that there is a dispute between the state and Macedonia over the name Republic of Macedonia. Under the international law, every state has the right to use the name chosen by the state. However, the UN called on both countries to resolve this dispute, and Nimetz has worked with great patience for many years as to find a solution acceptable to both countries. Throughout Greece was not ready to show interest in any name which would represent a kind of compromise. "

According to him Nimetz comments during each visit to Skopje, has been correct and reasonable. He hopes that Athens is sincerely willing to find a compromise, but he fears that we would have to conclude that there is no hope for Nimetz mediation success.

"The truth is that Greece does not want to see a solution to this issue, for reasons that are not entirely in the domain of internal Greek politics. For the last 24 years the name Macedonia has never done any harm to Greece, nor had a detrimental impact on the stability of Greece. In this situation the time has come for Macedonia to address the United Nations and explain that after 20 years this problem, which has never been a threat to international peace and security (Article 2 (3) of the UN Charter), and due to the wider interests for the stability in the Balkans should be subject to decision reached by voting in the General Assembly of the UN", says the British diplomat.

In other words, Macedonia should seek the UN General Assembly to accept Macedonia in the organization under the appropriate international name, Republic of Macedonia. He further suggests that this, will not make harder Macedonian joining the EU and NATO, but will facilitate the process,

In addition, according to the international law professor Igor Janev who is also an experienced researcher on the name issue, there is no political solution through negotiations with Greece over the name issue.

"Diplomatic recognition of this kind is impossible. Given that there is no political solution, the output must be requested by the UN General Assembly Resolution, which will change the denomination FYROM in the constitutional name of Republic of Macedonia or to initiate obtaining an advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice about the additional illegal Terms for Republic of Macedonia. By getting the Advisory Opinion of the International Court, and its acceptance by the UN General Assembly, the illegal reference should be replaced with the constitutional name Republic of Macedonia (by the Resolution), explains Janev in a statement for "Voice of the People."

[Risto the Great]

Meanwhile Nimetz recently said the negotiations were not on the identity but only on the name.
And he is in charge of the process.
Astounding.

[Stojacanec]

Macedonia should work on an exit strategy from the mythical name issue. It is long overdue and continuing the negotiations is nonsense.

Time and money spent on an exit trategy is what I call money well spent and a step in the right direction, as a nation and for all Macedonians anywhere in the world.

[George S.]

My sentiments exactly,there is no end to the name dispute.THat's why it should just end no more discussions. full stop.

[George S.]

The Name Dispute

The so called "name" dispute imposed on the Republic of Macedonia by its southern neighbour called the Hellenic Republic of Greece has been an ongoing bilateral issue between Skopje and Athens since the breakup of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1991 and since then Macedonia's accession to the United Nations and other international bodies has been delayed by strong Greek opposition for the simple reason being that it does not like what the Republic of Macedonia calls itself. The reasons provided by Greece about the name being an issue of territorial pretensions towards Greece is nothing more than a smoke screen argument by Greece saying that Macedonia is Greek and has been Greek for the last 3000 years. This is an interesting assertion from the so called cradle of democracy because it ignores the fact that in the ancient world there was no country called Greece and following the fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Ottoman Empire in 1453, most of what is today Greece came under Ottoman rule which lasted until 1821 and only in 1912 during the Balkan Wars did Greece seize its part of historic Macedonia which was part of the then Ottoman empire by pure military force.


This irrational dispute has escalated to the highest level of international mediation, involving numerous attempts by the United Nations Ambassador Matthew Nimetz and other mediators to achieve a satisfactory resolution and with all due respect Ambassador Nimetz has done a sterling job in making genuine attempts to find a mutually acceptable solution. I ask a hard question and that is whether there is indeed any issue of concern which is a real threat to Greece or is it just an issue of what Macedonians refer to as pure "inaat" by Greece to argue this issue on the international scene simply because it can and because others for whatever reason choose to listen to such mythological arguments?.

The International Court of Justice

One of the major reforms required by the international community for the emerging Macedonian democracy since 1991 was for the rule of law to prevail in Macedonia, so in line with this principle in November 2008, Macedonia instituted proceedings against Athens in front of the UN’s International Court of Justice for what it described as “a flagrant violation of [Greece’s] obligations under Article 11 of the Interim Accord signed by the Parties on 13 September 1995”. The alleged violation was referring to the blockade by Athens to Macedonia's bid for NATO membership.

The Court delivered its judgment on 5 December 2011.In its judgment, which is final, without possibility for appeal, and binding on the parties, the ICJ found that:

it has jurisdiction to process this case;
the Hellenic Republic, by objecting to the admission of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to NATO, has breached its obligation under Article 11, paragraph 1, of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995;
rejected all other submissions made by the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

Now the paradox to this whole argument appears to be an issue called by George Bernard Shaw "do as I say and not as I do" because the same international community especially in the EU and the USA chose to ignore the ICJ decision for various political reasons. This same international community is an absolute disgrace because on the one hand they require the rule of law in Macedonia and on the other hand they choose to ignore a court decision and the fact that most of the UN member states use the term Republic of Macedonia. I am always of the view that the EU is incompetent to follow its own rules because very few countries if any think European. The only power that can assist Macedonia's Euro Atlantic integration is the USA.

Having said that, the big question still remains to be answered as to what is it that Matthew Nimetz can do to assist both countries to resolve this long standing and illogical dispute? and is there really problem which requires so called international mediation?

The answer to the above question is very simple, No there is no real problem for the international community to mediate because ALL the Greek issues of concern about the flag, constitution and name have been adequately addressed by Macedonia. Ambassador Nimetz can refer to an article published in 2003 by the then leader of the opposition and current British Prime Minister Mr. David Cameron who wrote the following in the Guardian Newspaper:

"It hasn't been easy. The reason for the long name is that the Greeks complained vigorously that Macedonia already existed as a region of Greece and so could not be a separate country as well. This seems churlish in the extreme. The Greeks have their own country, their own name and have been showered with financial assistance since joining the EU. These people - the Macedonians - have recently escaped communism and have virtually nothing. And as if Greek pettiness wasn't enough the Albanians tend to dream of incorporating a large slice of FYR Macedonia into a Greater Albania while the Bulgars tend to think of the country as part of a Greater Bulgaria.

Yet as far as I could see, the country - and I am determined to call it Macedonia - has a perfect right to exist. The population is overwhelmingly Macedonian, with a distinctive language, culture and history. It is poorer than some of the other old Yugoslav republics, but considerably richer than Albania. The people are civilised, friendly and highly educated. Even my tour guide had an MBA.

It is always difficult to know how to answer the question: "What will you do to help us?" But on this occasion, I had the answer. From now on I will call our esteemed EU partner "the former Ottoman possession of Greece (Fopog)."

Mr Nimetz can also refer to a statement by the former Secretary of State Mr Lawrence Eagleburger

"The country which is now called Macedonia was called that as well during its existence as a Republic within the former Yugoslavia, Did this fact lead to any misunderstandings in those days between Greece and Yugoslavia or between Greece and the then Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia? No! Although misunderstandings existed even then, there was no security threat or any instability in the region, there is nothing more immature and silly than holding a country to ransom and negating its right to membership of international organisations? Where the purpose of these organisations is to keep the peace and protect the members from aggression of the non members. Greece says that Macedon and Alexander the Great are theirs. This is wrong because the ancient Greeks looked at ancient Macedonia as a semi civilized region"

Ambassador Nimetz has the following options:

Advise the UN security council that this problem started with the following three Greek demands; the change the flag, change the constitution and change the name of Macedonia. Macedonia changed the flag and changed the constitution to avert any Greek concerns which means that two of the three concerns were directly addressed by Macedonia and the third about the security fears by Greece over the name Macedonia were addressed by the amendments in the Macedonian constitution.

The name Macedonia does not imply any territorial pretensions because it is illegal under the Macedonian Constitution and Greek security is guaranteed by its membership of NATO and the Western Alliance system.
The term "Greece and Greek" are English words and do not exist in the modern Greek language.
The Greek allergy to the term "Macedonian" and "Macedonia" should be noted and declared an issue for Greece to learn to live with as previously stated by another great American and former Secretary of State Richard Holbrook.
Since 1991 there has been no security threat to Greece by the Republic of Macedonia or during the period of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia within the then Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
The vast majority of the United Nations member states accept the name of the country as the Republic of Macedonia.
Allow Macedonian membership of NATO which will strengthen Greek security and even then the only two options are for Greece to either stay in the alliance or to leave the alliance which is a choice they need to make.
There are many other bilateral issues around the world which are not used as an excuse to block entrance of a member state into other international bodies.
Macedonia and Greece agree to disagree on issues of identity.
Business and commercial relations between Macedonia and Greece are excellent and Greece is the biggest foreign investor in Macedonia.
There is nothing further for the UN to mediate as the ICJ has found that the name Republic of Macedonia which is accepted by the vast majority of member states does not imply territorial pretensions toward Greece.



My sentimemts exactly,The real problem is with greece.It fully knows that macedonia is the name of a country and it will pull all stops to prevent it.The answer is simple that Greece needs to accept macedonia as macedonia not what it would it like it to be.

[spitfire]

Just one point here George S. Greek exists also in the greek languange, as "Γραικός" (Graekos).

Now in terms of the name dispute, instead of trying to find a name that nobody fears for any what reason, and before someone proposes a name like "Republic of the very very south of Finland" for that matter, a good idea would be to use a name straightforward from macedonian language itself. Not in English, but in Macedonian and use that even in English and the whole world.
This would definatelly be very distinctive of what both sides want and will resolve the issue.
Case closed.

[vicsinad]

This would definatelly be very distinctive of what both sides want and will resolve the issue.
Case closed.

What the other side wants doesn't matter with regards to what my side wants to call itself.

[Philosopher]

Now in terms of the name dispute, instead of trying to find a name that nobody fears for any what reason, and before someone proposes a name like "Republic of the very very south of Finland" for that matter, a good idea would be to use a name straightforward from macedonian language itself. Not in English, but in Macedonian and use that even in English and the whole world.
This would definatelly be very distinctive of what both sides want and will resolve the issue.
Case closed.

Not quite Spitfire. The problem here is that this rule is not applicable to any other nation-state in the word. The Italians may call themselves "Italia", and that is fine, but in English it is Italy. Under your suggestion, Italy would no longer be called Italy.

To suggest that Macedonia stop using the English name Macedonia because Greece objects to this English name is frankly absurd. Moreover, Greece objects to this nation-state using the Macedonian name period.

Most absurd.

[spitfire]

Not quite Spitfire. The problem here is that this rule is not applicable to any other nation-state in the word. The Italians may call themselves "Italia", and that is fine, but in English it is Italy. Under your suggestion, Italy would no longer be called Italy.

To suggest that Macedonia stop using the English name Macedonia because Greece objects to this English name is frankly absurd. Moreover, Greece objects to this nation-state using the Macedonian name period.

Most absurd.

I think it is applicable to other nation states. Greece uses Hellenic Republic.

What is your view on the greek proposal? A name that signifies a geographical region.

[Sovius]

I think it is applicable to other nation states. Greece uses Hellenic Republic.

What is your view on the greek proposal? A name that signifies a geographical region.

The blood on your ancestors' hands suggests Macedonia will do just fine. You have no say in the matter. Why proceed as if, somehow, your government did?

[Soldier of Macedon]

....a good idea would be to use a name straightforward from macedonian language itself. Not in English, but in Macedonian and use that even in English and the whole world.

Silly idea that has already been proposed and rejected. The Macedonian republic has the right to retain its name and neither you or any other Greek has the right to dictate terms to our people. Nobody here accepts any name change so spare us your suggestions.

This would definatelly be very distinctive of what both sides want and will resolve the issue.

There already is a distinction. Macedonia on the one hand, Greece on the other. This problem exists only because some Greeks want it to.

I think it is applicable to other nation states. Greece uses Hellenic Republic.

Wrong. If it was applicable to other states then in the English-speaking world Greece should be Elliniki Dimokratia and Italy should be Repubblica italiana. As Philosopher states, it is absurd. The only entity that such an absurd 'English' reference is applied to in the region is Republika Srpska (which should really be Serbian Republic), possibly to avoid confusion with the Republic of Serbia. Interesting to note that the name of the independent state takes precedence over the name of the region/entity within another state, just like in the case of Ireland.

[Phoenix]

Just one point here George S. Greek exists also in the greek languange, as "Γραικός" (Graekos).

Now in terms of the name dispute, instead of trying to find a name that nobody fears for any what reason, and before someone proposes a name like "Republic of the very very south of Finland" for that matter, a good idea would be to use a name straightforward from macedonian language itself. Not in English, but in Macedonian and use that even in English and the whole world.
This would definatelly be very distinctive of what both sides want and will resolve the issue.
Case closed.

You slimy bastard, you've danced around the periphery since you first joined the forum, not drawing too much attention to yourself but you've belatedly shown your true colours...
Perhaps your side should adopt your suggestion...consider consulting George R. R. Martin and his fictional High Valyrian for inspiration...surely closing the 'case', once and for all...