Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Volk]

They should also start using the original flag more frequently and if possible exclusively, together with the above actions by our sportspeople it would send an even stronger message.

absolutely, I also think a certain statue has raised some national feeling

[Vangelovski]

absolutely, I also think a certain statue has raised some national feeling

Which one, "warrior on horse" or "king on throne"?

[Volk]

Which one, "warrior on horse" or "king on throne"?

Regardless of the imbecile names the Alexander Statue seems to be having an effect on people which is a good sign.

Lets hope our people start rejecting the FYR all over the world.

[Vangelovski]

Regardless of the imbecile names the Alexander Statue seems to be having an effect on people which is a good sign.

Lets hope our people start rejecting the FYR all over the world.

How do you know its having an effect? Maybe they're reading the MTO and finally woke up to themselves. I can make that statement because I've done as much market research on the matter as you have.

[Volk]

How do you know its having an effect? Maybe they're reading the MTO and finally woke up to themselves. I can make that statement because I've done as much market research on the matter as you have.

Visit the Alexander Statue has arrived threat and look through the articles, lets not suffocate another important thread.

[Vangelovski]

Visit the Alexander Statue has arrived threat and look through the articles, lets not suffocate another important thread.

Read through any thread on this forum and see how peoples' eyes have been opened.

[George S.]

Yeah most people have accepted the statue as a good thing,but we don't accept the govt caving in & calling it something else.It's like us calling ourselves still fyr macedonia.We should drop the fyr as it serves no purpose only a reminder of capitulation.We should tell the world we are just macedonia.Stand up & show some real balls don't let a bunch of grk neighbours tell us what to do.

[lavce pelagonski]

What they should do is not compete at all at the end of the day the announcer will still call out 'FYROM' its the same with our karate representation in Skopje they called themselves with that acronym. I'll try and find the article.

[Soldier of Macedon]

absolutely, I also think a certain statue has raised some national feeling

Volk, I seriously doubt that Macedonians needed a no-name statue to inspire this line of thought. Such sporadic examples are not uncommon, what they lack is cohesion.

[Pelister]

It isn't clear exactly which Macedonian politician moved the issue of our admission to the United Nation, out of the UN institution at this stage.

But what is clear is that our 'identity' is now 'open' to the political tampering behind closed doors!

Here is what one legal expert, Professor Janev has to say about it.

August 8, 2009

http://turkeymacedonia.wordpress.com/?s=Igor+Janev&searchbutton=go%21

PROFESSOR IGOR JANEV

Professor Igor Janev is on a personal mission against Greece. He has attempted to talk the Macedonian Government into pursuing legal avenues at the UN for more than 10 years. Most recently, Professor Janev was one of the initiators that helped Serbia win their case at the UN in questioning the legality of Kosovo’s declaration for independence. Professor Janev advises Macedonia to follow Serbia and question Greece at the UN’s General Assembly. While Macedonia has so far rejected/ignored professor Janev’s recommendations, foreign countries ask for and follow his advice.

Few decades ago, in 1948, Portugal was not allowed to be admitted at the UN without prior recognition by the then USSR. The ICJ stepped in and formed a law prohibiting the UN in setting new conditions on countries being admitted to the UN. Yet similarly to Portugal, under bizarre and illegal circumstances, Macedonia was asked to use temporary name in order to become a member?

Below is an excerpt of an interview Professor Janev gave Macedonian media.

How do you grade the present Macedonian position, the process in Hague, Nimetz…

- Someone ought to explain to Mr. Nimetz that Macedonia has no intentions to solve someone else’s problem, a problem illegally created by the UN, thus creating an ultra vires act. Macedonia can’t be a hostage of someone else’s mistakes. The UN will fix their error by transferring the case to the ICJ.

Why MANU gives no support in the ‘name negotiations’

- MANU is not well informed about the problem and has lack of experience when it comes to international laws tied to the name negotiations. If different, MANU would long ago recommended stoppage of all negotiations with Greece! Because of its lack of experienced intellectuals, MANU in its agenda gave no statement on the existence of lawful way to terminate negotiations and move discussions at the UN’s General Assembly. This is a huge omission by a high institution such as the Academy.

How many countries does Macedonia need at the UN to support transfer of dispute at ICJ?

- The number of non-aligned countries is 118. Tabling this question at the UN will require the support of minimum 41 countries. In Kosovo’s case, it was the Non-Aligned nations who gave an overwhelming support to Serbia, which received 77 votes.
What this means for Macedonia? With minimal to no lobbying effort, Macedonia will receive at least 60 votes at the UN.
UN’s court is aware the UN has broken articles 1, 4, 7 of the UN’s Charter when admitting Macedonia to the UN. This case is identical to the 1948 Portugal case which we should call upon.
There is no doubt the General Assembly will vote in favor of Macedonia after it hears the opinion of the court, thus cementing the “Republic of Macedonia” at the UN.

Why talks on Language, Identity?

- This is the result of complete incompetence demonstrated by Macedonian diplomats. This is the only reason why things such as culture, linguistics, going as far as and comparing the ‘historical’ identity of Greece is being negotiated. According to SC resolution 817, GA 47/225) the talks are only for the state’s name. The legal identity is an integral part, with essential character, and is used for legal identification or in legal cases. The legal identity can not be forced onto or taken away from someone. It is also illegal to ask a country (with conditions) to endlessly negotiate over its legal identity. Furthermore, it is nonsense to discuss culture or linguistics as both are not mentioned anywhere in the UN resolution.

This situation clearly shows the Macedonian side has tremendous lack of knowledge on the legality of this problem by putting the legal identity, cultural and national identity in the same basket. The Greeks understand this, being helped by the fact that Macedonian delegation continues to say the ‘dispute’ is a bilateral problem.
Not the case, this is a multilateral problem, we are not discussing, we are Negotiating. The Greeks understand that the Macedonians, in fact, do not understand the legal nature of this problem.

Any Legal ways left ?

- Referendum, can always be put in front of the citizens. I have no doubt the Macedonians will say “NO” to any change.
The question is whether we even need a referendum? We have already voted for independence, and it was then that we decided Macedonia to be Macedonia. There is no need for another referendum, especially not one instigated by Greece.
My stance is that Macedonia should not change the name. Instead should consider legal avenues at the UN and the ICJ.

Gruevski has been deceiving the Macedonian people into believing that:

1. We are formally blocked from admission to the United Nations
2. The only way to gain admission is to 'negotiate' outside of the U.N institution

Both of these propositions, pushed by Gruevski but also by UMD, are lies.

By taking this matter within the U.N institution, our identity and political existence is open to the whims and fancy of individual politicians. The Macedonian politicians who took it out of the U.N is as much to blame as those politicians who continue to keep it out of the U.N - and in the hands of individual politicians. Our political existence is exposed to foriegn intereference! Can you imagine delegates from the Greek government NEGOTIATING (not discussing!), our identity and political existence! Well, its happening right now people!

[Pelister]

The "negotiations" were instigated and set up by Macedonian politicians, not by the Greeks. I don't know which politicians moved the issue out of the U.N yet (I will find that out), but who ever they were the "negotiations" were created and crafted by these individual Macedonian politicians.

At least one legal expert has advised us that we were never actually blocked from the United Nations.

[vicsinad]

Many of the Macedonians throughout the first half of the 20th century used any tactic conceivable to keep the Macedonian issue in the European and international spotlight. Our we using all coneivable tactics to eliminate the name and identity discrimination, and should we?

[George S.]

with a weird name like fyrom we do stand out from the crowd.

[Risto the Great]

US urges Greece, Macedonia to resolve name row

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jA9mcSauOzHoztb1NAGp1jGQJL7w?docId=CNG.bdac60bc01523cb81732d8109017db35.9a1

ATHENS — US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has urged Greece and Macedonia to resolve a long-standing name row that has undermined relations and blocks Skopje's EU and NATO entry bids.

"We have made it very clear that we support the negotiations that have gone on between Skopje and Athens," Clinton told Greece's SKAI TV in a recorded interview that aired Monday.

"We think that there is an opportunity here," she added on the sidelines of a three-day trip to Athens to express US support for Greece's debt recovery efforts.

The two countries have been at loggerheads since Macedonia proclaimed independence from the former Yugoslavia in 1991, with Greece insisting that the use of the name Macedonia implies a claim on Greek territory.

Macedonian officials say name change could lead to a denial of the country's language and national identity.

Almost two decades of UN-led negotiations over the name dispute have been fruitless.

Skopje officially became a candidate for EU membership in 2005, but Athens has blocked its accession to the 27-nation bloc and NATO.
Macedonia also filed an application with the International Court of Justice in November 2008, claiming Greece was violating its rights by blocking its membership of NATO pending the resolution of the name dispute.

"The government in Skopje needs to know that it will not be able to move forward on its European integration until it does resolve this (issue). And, obviously, Greece has to be willing to accept how the name is resolved," Clinton said.

"So, we have encouraged as strongly as we can that this matter be finally taken care of," she said before flying on to India, the next leg of a regional trip.

Thanks USA. It is great to have your support. Macedonians will sleep better at night knowing USA supports Macedonia's right to be called something else.

[makedonche]

Here you have it ladies and gentlemen, and those of UMD, the very obvious position of the US on Macedonia's right to self determination - let me point out the obvious for those in the UMD who will have difficulty comprehending this statement:-

"We have made it very clear that we support the negotiations that have gone on between Skopje and Athens," Clinton told Greece's SKAI TV in a recorded interview that aired Monday.

The negotiations have been taking place between countries - not cities!

Skopje officially became a candidate for EU membership in 2005

Macedonia became a candidate - not Skopje! - dumb bitch!

"The government in Skopje needs to know that it will not be able to move forward on its European integration until it does resolve this (issue).

The government of Macedonia - not the government in Skopje- deliberately dumb bitch!

[QUOTEAnd, obviously, Greece has to be willing to accept how the name is resolved," Clinton said.

][/QUOTE]
Why is it the govenment in Skopje for Macedonians and the government in Greece for Greeks - instead of the government of Athens?
What we have here is a series of fruedian slips that have either been carefully chosen or area deliberate part of the campaign to sell "Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) - which the US has already decided on!