Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Volk]

We all know that the Government will use the back of the people to go to a referendum it will very dangerous precedent too

But if a referendum succeeds with a resounding No then what possible path could the Macedonian government take there will at least finally be movement

Macedonia is open to electoral manipulation, take the Ohrid agreement referendum, when the USA recognized Macedonia a day before the referendum, parties where organized and the referendum failed.

Something similar can occur in the instance of a name referendum, so playing that game is very dangerous.

There should be nothing on the table in the first place.

[julie]

Macedonia is open to electoral manipulation, take the Ohrid agreement referendum, when the USA recognized Macedonia a day before the referendum, parties where organized and the referendum failed.

Something similar can occur in the instance of a name referendum, so playing that game is very dangerous.

There should be nothing on the table in the first place.

well said Volk

[Soldier of Macedon]

I was under the impression that they only changed this due to them being unable to register the emblem or party symbol because of the Kutlesh sonce on it?

Do you know which law prevents them from doing that? It looks more like Dostoinstvo's effort to integrate themselves into mainstream Macedonian politics by conforming to the same 'standards' set by these traitors dressed in plastic patriotism.

If this is true... the words pathetic are not even close to summarize the Macedonian political landscape.

It is true.

На тој пат не смее да има никаков компромис за националниот идентитет и за македонскиот јазик, а се друго може да се стави на преговарачка маса, рече бизнисменот Ристо Гуштеров, кој ја предводи листата на партијата Достоинство во Првата изборна единица.
http://www.dnevnik.com.mk/default.as...449E3BA5B860A6

What is this "se drugo" that he is talking about? What else is there to negotiate? Even this Strasho Angelovski character seems to consider DPNE acceptable because they are less 'evil' than SDS. My question to him would be, if they are 'evil' at all where it concerns the Macedonian Cause, why throw in your lot with a group led by a bunch of naive politicians, plastic 'patriots' and traitors?

Actually, for someone who is supposed to be on the ball, you missed the obvious deduction that comes from the Dostoinstvo......

Actually I have already seen that. You're confusing yourself because you've posted the same posts in multiple threads and can't seem to grasp the current point within the topic.

Your are entitled to your opinion.....

My opinion where it concerns your attitude is more than corroborated. Rather than taking my advice so you can reach out to more people and thus benefit the Macedonian Cause, I see that your condescending attitude is more important to you. Well done. Don't go around bitchin' about not enough Macedonians being aware of our plight when supposedly 'informed' persons like yourself aren't prepared to give them the time of day and appropriately educate them with the truth. It is little wonder that our younger generations aren't as informed as they should be, when there is so much arrogance stemming from certain people in older generations like yourself.

[Vangelovski]

I've had a look for this so-called law that does not allow political parties to register the sonce as a symbol and it appears that it does not exist. I could be wrong, but it looks as if Dostoinstvo has lied in order to cover their conformity with Macedonia's vassal/traitor politicians.

[Volk]

what a joke the whole situation is... Every political party in the country is prepared to capitulated to a morally and economically bankrupt black hole of europe.... greece...

[lavce pelagonski]

Pangalos: It was us who created the name issue!

Dont know if this has been posted. What an egg head, he has no clue what he is saying and he basically comes to the same position as Samaras himself by adding that a complex name be used, why not just simply Macedonia.

http://micnews.com.mk/node/26479

PANGALOS: IT WAS US WHO CREATED THE NAME ISSUE!
MIC – May 16, 2011 – 1:15pm

Greek Deputy Prime Minister Theodoros Pangalos is again in the focus of the public attention because of his positions with regard to the issue concerning Macedonia’s name, Utrinski vesnik reports. Pangalos went public for the first time since the criticism aired by one of the most prominent Greek columnists about the secrecy of his positions and two months since the publication of the of WikiLeaks document. In the WikiLeaks document, Pangalos said that Macedonia should freely use the name “Macedonia” but he would not say it in public because it would prompt a storm of harsh reactions. Aside from the name “Macedonia”, he speaks also about the geographic qualifier, the nationalistic heating up of conflict situations and the abuse of the issue for political popularity.

Writer and columnist Nikos Dimou is asking in his column in the weekly Lifo why Pangalos, who is considered to be a very outspoken man, did not air his view about this strenuous issue in public to help Greece get rid of the “pseudo-problem” that has held both countries hostage for 20 years. The Greek deputy prime minister provided the response in a letter, contending that he had never concealed his position that Macedonia should be allowed to use that name.

“I strongly believe that the problem was not created by the Skopians. It was us who created it and I believe that this problem would not have existed if we had had maturity to say that we were not at all interested in how they wished to call their country,” Pangalos says.

Further on, he says that he and Konstantin Mitsotakis were the only ones that had told the public the truth about the dispute and that, in his view, is the only thing he and the former Greek prime minister had in common.

“The entire situation is a classic example of a nationalistic delirium and the person responsible for that is Mr. Andonis Samaras,” Pangalos says, adding that the name issue is an example of how wrong person at key positions may do damage at a national level. He says that the present leader of the opposition New Democracy, Samaras, is most to blame why the issue has not yet been resolved.

According to Pangalos, the assorted groups of nationalists in both countries only encourage creation of nationalistic conflicts over a non-existent subject.

“Everybody knows there is no ‘Slav-Macedonian minority’ and nobody stopped anyone in Greece from being a ‘Slav-Macedonian’ or anything else for that matter,” Pangalos says.

“If Skopje wishes to call itself Macedonia, it is their business,” Pangalos explains, adding that the attempt of the Macedonian Government at usurping parts of history, such as Alexander the Great, in fact reveals great national insecurity primarily because of the rising Albanian nationalism. His proposal with regard to, as he says, Macedonia’s wish to call itself Macedonia is that there should be a qualifier to make it distinct from the other two territories of Macedonia in Greece and Bulgaria. In other words, there should be a complex name for all use.

“In fact, the effects of this subject are not as important in the bilateral relations between the two countries as they are important in the two countries’ internal affairs where certain political powers use use the sensitivity and patriotism of the citizens to win votes easily,” Pangalos concludes.

[Soldier of Macedon]

A typical example of a Balkan clown that experiences a moment of clarity drowned in an hour of morony. At least he has half a peanut which allows him to understand that what other countries call themselves is not Greece's business.

[Vangelovski]

A typical example of a Balkan clown that experiences a moment of clarity drowned in an hour of morony. At least he has half a peanut which allows him to understand that what other countries call themselves is not Greece's business.

He says that but within a "UMD" context - he goes on to say that we need some sort of a "qualifier". So, his rant isn't really clarity rather further confusion on his part.

[Stojacanec]

He speaks of insecurities that we have re Albanians. Macedonia has been a state of Yugoslavia since post ww11 therefore by referring to us as Skopje or Skopjans show they too have well entrenched insecurities.

[Soldier of Macedon]

He says that but within a "UMD" context - he goes on to say that we need some sort of a "qualifier". So, his rant isn't really clarity rather further confusion on his part.

That's why I said a moment of clarity drowned in morony

[Pelister]

This again is just a ploy to get that idiot Gruevski to make a "concession", even though he has been refusing to reject the Greek position, and their terms in principle. Gruevski treats this 'problem' from the point of view that we don't have a history, and neither do the invading 'Greeks' for that matter, but its o.k for them to be Macedonians. There is no question of 'rights' of the Macedonians based on prior occupation, there is no recognition of Macedonian resistance to what was and continues to be a hostile land grab. The Macedonians had given no provocation ...etc. The question of 'justice' has NEVER been raised.

The Greek will continue until there are no longer people who identify as simply Macedonians, until the disorganised and treasonous remnants of our society entirely disappear with their children among the 'Greeks' and among the 'Westerners'.

Only then can the invading 'Greeks' elevate their artificial community to take our place.

So much of what is happening right now, what Gruevski is doing and what he is thinking - has entirely by passed, and intentionally avoided a historical diagnosis of the situation. I mean stop negotiating our identity. Gruevski (being a whore), is putting us in terrible danger. He has taken care to suppress the past, to conceal it and to misrepresent it and avoid it.

I think people have to realise that its a matter of E.U policy to destroy the Macedonians, its a matter of Greek policy and Bulgarian policy to eradicate us so that their 'false communities' can take our place as the real Macedonians.

What if so fking outrageous about Nikola Gruevski is he is driven by economic interest, and a potential financial HAND OUT, and the need to cover up the past - and at the same time, he is striking at the heart of Macedonian social order and identity, by turning our identity into a bargaining chip.

[Pelister]

We need a new party.

END THE NEGOTIATIONS Political Party.

Based on current sentiment, it would probably win about 70 seats in Parliament.

I mean if Meto Koloski decided to start a political party in Macedonia, 'End the Negotiations' he would probably go down in history as the man who saved Macedonian, he would be loved by the Macedonian people, but he would be hated in the West for it. I can never see it happening. Todor Petrov on the other hand, has the connection to do something like that.

[George S.]

you are right pelister todor petrov i have met when he was here in australia.I think when branko was in power We got to talking about the diaspora & he said as far as he is concerned that is the untapped area & that's where our strength lay in our fight with the greeks.On the subject of name change he said that he is totally opposed.Given the situation i think if he started such a party & informed the macedonian public about what's going on he could win.
Do people know that sdcm is doorknocking to get votes & are giving away bags of coffee.
Also they saying for people to vote for them & they'll get jobs.How pathetic is that.
We don't need clowns like meto in parliament as he never keeps his word says one thing & does another.Goodness sakes he'll give macedonia to the albanians with fries as well.

[vicsinad]

When a Name Becomes a Game: Negotiating the Macedonian Identity

Here's a paper I wrote... it's basically a summary of the history leading up to the name dispute, the negotiations, and why the negotiations have failed. I hope it's useful for some people. Thanks for reading it.

http://www.makedonika.org/whatsnew/Final+Mak+Paper.pdf

[Risto the Great]

Welcome Vic.

I am lazy and I jumped to your final conclusion.

" However, above all else, the world should unite under one common stance – the identity and existence of a people can never be negotiated. "

I like it.