Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Currency Trader]

CT, I will enjoy answering your questions in due course but am finding it difficult with my phone presently whilst overseas. I like how you avoided any mention of the economic superiority of Yugoslavia vs Macedonia. I see some strange similarities. But anyway, I will guess how bad things can get in the EU, can you guess what the EU wants for Macedonia? Hint, look at their parliamentary resolutions.

It's not about avoiding. I comment what I find revelant to the subject discussed, i.e Can Macedonia benefit or grow economically from EU membership - Your rant about Yugoslavia was your way of taking the discussion into another direction as you failed to support your prior arguments with facts and emperical research.



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[Soldier of Macedon]

I have not said winds are changing.

And I didn't say you said winds are changing. I merely highlighted the fact that you spoke about winds changing as a possibility with respect to Macedonia's prospects of entering the EU without changing its name.

There is a difference between winds do change and winds are changing.

There sure is. Perhaps next time you will read my reply more carefully and save your semantics for somebody that can bothered entertaining them.

Nonetheless, how the change of winds will come about is another question and another subject.

You're the one who suggested that Macedonia's prospects for membership into the EU without a name change may transpire because "winds do change". I simply asked you for a possible scenario of this 'wind change' you keep harping on about, and you first reply with "EU allowing Macedonia to join", and then the subsequent dribble in your following posts.

I was going to ask you how these wind changes may occur, again, but I see that there is no point, as your pathetic responses indicate a lack of interest and/or willingness for normal discussion. You're clearly still upset about things said during conversations in 2010. Get over it already.

[George S.]

CT you are making it easy when macedonia joins the eu it's going to be great.It's like the candyman waving lollies for the kids are we going to fall for that or what.It's not as rosy as you make it out to be.What if macedonia doesn't join the eu & doesn't change their name.It's as if we are dictated to you must do this or that.

[Bill77]

FM Milososki: Macedonia needs a Respectable EP Rapporteur

The next EP Rapporteur for Macedonia should be a person that enjoys great respect, and if it happens it would be a pleasure to cooperate with him in favor of turning the country's goal into reality - opening of its EU accession talks, Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki told reporters on Monday.

There is a tacit rule for the EP Rapporteur to be from any other but a neighbouring country, leaving no room for possible misunderstandings, Milososki said, after giving lecture at the University of Tourism and Management.

The non-existence of the term Macedonia in the last European Parliament's resolution is a result of the aggressive Greek diplomacy, especially its actions after the Bucharest NATO Summit, Milososki said.

They are trying to erase the internationally recognized codes for the Republic of Macedonia, such as MKD and Macedonia, from all rule books, manuals for their application, Milososki said, pointing out that times when it had been possible were long gone.

"Today the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian people are part of the European family and culture and there is no politician, government or country that can deny that. Some may like it or not, but the Macedonian language and people are part of the European mosaic of languages and cultures," the FM said.

He also qualified as speculation the claims that some agreement on the name had been reached and was to be presented to the public few months after the snap elections.

"What we can say is well-known to the public. The (negotiation) process is in progress under the UN auspices and Matthew Nimetz's mediation. Macedonia, as thus far, will take active, good-will part in it. We are not happy with the fact that the problem is being dragged for 20 years. Macedonia has been paying the real price for this dispute, I believe is imposed by Greece without particular excuse and reason," Milososki said, adding that the problem persisted for such a long time because some Greek politicians suffered from lack of pragmatism and sense of reality.

Milososki doesn't share MEP Jelko Kacin's opinion that Macedonia has been lagging behind on its road to the EU membership.

"Macedonia's progress is measurable by the reports of the European Commission, Transparency International and other tangible, real criteria. I consider that in the spheres of economy, judiciary, education, infrastructure, human rights and all others, Macedonia has been gradually advancing for the last five years," Milososki said.

All well-intentioned remarks, directed to the country, are an additional impetus for investing more efforts in the reforms, as they are not being conducted for Brussels, but for the well-being of the citizens of Macedonia, the FM said.
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17981/2/

You can tell Elections are coming up. This statement is out of character for Milososki. Why can't he mean what he says.

[Risto the Great]

"What we can say is well-known to the public. The (negotiation) process is in progress under the UN auspices and Matthew Nimetz's mediation. Macedonia, as thus far, will take active, good-will part in it. "

All the rest is reasonable enough I suppose.
But the above statement adds the precise kind of ambiguity that is now synonymous with DPMNE. Since we know (from him) that Macedonia(Skopje) was wholeheartedly on the table, we understand completely the agenda of these traitors and can interpret the "ambiguous" text accordingly.

[Currency Trader]

soM said

I merely highlighted the fact that you spoke about winds changing as a possibility with respect to Macedonia's prospects of entering the EU without changing its name.

Winds changing implies that something is changing as we speak. No where have I written the words “winds changing” – Those are your words – Once again, I said: “Nothing is impossible and winds do change”.

You're the one who suggested that Macedonia's prospects for membership into the EU without a name change may transpire because "winds do change”

Yes, when that happens, you will be notified.


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[Soldier of Macedon]

Winds changing implies that something is changing as we speak.

If you had bothered to read the whole sentence, you would understand the context and I wouldn't have to waste my time explaining basic grammar to a 'currency trader' like he was a 10 year old.

Yes, when that happens, you will be notified.

Now that we've come full circle, are you going to support your suggestion that winds may change by explaining how and why that may come about?

[Pelister]

Pelister said:



Has anyone been able to show that E.U membership will not benefit Macedonia economically? Perhaps you could give a try.

While Rome was not built overnight, early emperical research suggests that new members states (central & eastern European countries) have benefitted from expansion in trade and foreign direct investments (FDI) as they were about join EU - Although data is limited, economic integration between the older Member States (EU15) and the New Member States (+12, including Romania) has been developing progressively. The new states quickly became the EU’s second trade partner after the US, accounting for 12.3% of EU’s total external trade. At the same time, the EU is the most important partner for the new member states (including Bulgaria and Romania).

Serbia, Slovenia or Turkey, not your most technological or high-end capital goods countries - Moreover, an overwhelming majority of all central and eastern European counties, in addition to nordic countries have joined EU - Obviously, there must be something for them to join the largest regional market.

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Again, there is no evidence that E.U membership will benefit Macedonia economically, in fact prices of all things will rise. Its going to make life harder for the average Macedonian family. There are billions that have gone 'missing' - who knows where. This idea that the E.U is the 'benchmark' is absolute bullshit - it is full of corruption and imperial and colonial politics - masked in economic theory. They throw around terms like 'prosperity' and 'future' with promises of a 'Western life' - as long as it meets their political objectives.

Secondly, you have entirely ignored the all important 'context' in this membership. There is no point talking up and inventing supposed benefits of membership, (ignoring the corruption in the E.U also) while ignoring the real issues at stake, which are that the E.U is demanding we change our name. I am sick of your efforts to keep the economic bullshit and the E.U politics, separate, because they are parts of the same beast. Your attempt to remove this all important political context, is an indication that your intention here is to decieve people.

Personally, I want us to keep the Denar as our official currency because it is just another element (albiet a small one), that tells the world we are distinctive, and unique.

Also, your taking individual sentences out of their paragraphs which can change the meaning of them. They also lose their 'context'. I don't know whether its a deliberate thing, in order to introduce uncertainty into a discussion. It would be more honest of you to include the entire paragraph, and simply highlight the sentence, so that people can see its all important context, otherwise your misrepresenting what people actually meant.

[George S.]

""Has anyone been able to show that E.U membership will not benefit Macedonia economically? Perhaps you could give a try."

How about ireland & it's exploitation of its fishing industry by the eu.Ireland was concerned about that.The eu was almost exhausting the fish on the irish coast.The eu virtually take more out of a country then it gives back as a benefit.There are other countries that the eu affects in a similar manner it's called exploitation of it's natural resources & other forms of ownership.
CT can you tell me how changing one's name is worth the trouble just to join the eu.
If you don't have job in your own country how is the eu going to help you.Example Bulgaria heaps tried to go to eu countries only to be turned away.France & germany turned heaps of people away.Who can afford the eu prices.

[Lügendetektor]

It is clear who has no idea. By your own fickle reasoning you would have accepted any flag.

Dude, any flag containing the fuckin macedonian sun!!!


i am waiting for indigen who pissed quite often my feet and named me "predavnik".

where is he now to answer some simple questions or to paste a fuckin utube link, prooving me wrong about my opinion about the 16 rayed sun?

[indigen]

Dude, any flag containing the fuckin macedonian sun!!!

In your view, which is the Macedonian Sun?

Secondly, since we know the Greeks also have flags with the Macedonian Sun symbol, would you use their choice of colour as representing the Macedonian national flag?

i am waiting for indigen who pissed quite often my feet and named me "predavnik".

You should quote the passage where I am supposed to have called you that otherwise it could be assumed to be nothing more than drug induced hallucinations.

where is he now to answer some simple questions or to paste a fuckin utube link, prooving me wrong about my opinion about the 16 rayed sun?

What is your opinion and why don't you read some earlier extensive discussion on the topic?

Petre Temelkovski - KLETVA GOLEMA i ednakva na sramot!
YouTube - Petre Temelkovski - KLETVA GOLEMA i ednakva na sramot!

Kletvata e skraten izvadok od filmot/monodramata na Petre Temelkovski - Philip II of Macedon (Part1).

"....Makedoncite, vo vremeto na Filip II, bea izrasteni vo edna gorda i samosvesna nacija, koja so prezir gledase na Elinite. Ovoj fakt e od golemo znacenje za proucuvanje na podocneznata makedonska istorija!

Makedon, tatko moj, ova li e moeto pokolenie?

Jas, Filip II, Car na Makedonija, deneska na 24-ti zlatec, 7507-to leto, vo grobot vo Kutlesh se prevrtuvam i poradi sramot so imeto nagrdeno na drzavata, gi prokolnuvam predavnicte od rodot moj so KLETVA GOLEMA i ednakva na sramot;

IZRODI EDNI, prokletstvo neka ve prati za celiot zivot
Site nebesni molnji, vrz glavite vasi prazni neka se strupolat
Do sto postoi zlo, na vekov i na svetov, vo vas da se vklesti
Krasti i uleri strupesti, dusite prodadeni da vi gi vadat
Krokodili ostrozabi, utrobata da vi ja raskinat
Orli krstantni na karpa vzestena, trupovite da vi gi cerecat
Bogovite sevisni, padnat na kolena od grobot gi molam
Seta kolnatija, nebesna i zemna, i na ovoj i na toj vek tamu
Vrz vas da ja isturat, IZRODI EDNI!
Sto ja turnavte Makedonija vo propast da ponira
So pristanot vas, IMETO SVETO i ZNAMETO da i go poganat
Sto se glavivte tugji VAZALI da bidete
Ja ostavivte drzavata na milost i nemilost
Bez IME, bez ZNAME, bez ZAKON, bez KRUNA, bez PRESTOL i bez CAR!...."


Petre Temelkovski - Philip II of Macedon (Part1) - YouTube - Petre Temelkovski - Philip II of Macedon (Part1)

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1761&page=3

Замислете лага која македонската јавност треба да ја проголта?!

Оти, СДСМ, Социјалистичката партија, Либералната партија и ПДП добија домашна задача, "светот" да им ги признае фалсификуваните избори, ама тие да ја одработат промената на името, знамето и Уставот на државата Македонија. Не Грците да се мачат. Туку се да биде под форма на демократија и светот да каже, па новото име сами си го прифатија, никој од надвор не им го наметна.

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http://www.makedonskosonce.com/sonce184/tekst2t.htm

СДСМ-АТИНСКИ ПРЕГОВОРИ ЗА ИМЕТО НА ДРЖАВАТА МАКЕДОНИЈА

ОБЕДИНЕТИТЕ НАЦИИ НЕ МОЖАТ ДА ПРОМЕНАТ ИМЕ НА ДР ЖАВА!


Пишува Тодор ПЕТРОВ

"Обединетите Нации не се ниту Држава ниту Влада, и врз основа на тоа не поседуваат никаква власт да признаваат Држава или Влада. Како Организација на независни држави, Обединетите нации можат да примат нова држава во своето членство или да ги прифатат акредитивните писма на претставниците од нова Влада."

"Обединетите нации не можат да променат име на Држава. За соодветна држава, за такви прашања одлучуваат нејзината Влада и народот."

Центар на ООН за јавни истражувања


Камен да беше, по толку многу апели, митинзи, протести, научни мислења, реагирања, човек ќе се освестеше.

Но, ова, што ѓавол ли ќе беше?

Без мандат од никого, од позиција на претседател на држава да преговараш за промена на името на државата Македонија чиј претседател наводно си и за името на македонскиот народ на кој наводно му припаѓаш? Господ да чува и да брани.

Изрод!

И, што мислите? Раат е туѓиот да те тапка по раме за злото што им го правиш на своите или по смртта твоите за предавник да те сметаат и гробот да ги го преораат, за навек да не се знае дека си постоел? Зошто преголемо е злото што си го направил да си меѓу мртвите, а камо ли и меѓу живите.

Некои по се изгледа на тоа и не размислуваат. Не им е гајле. Се однесуваат божем смрт за нив нема. Како да се платеници (а времето тоа ќе го покаже), на кои божем им е ветено дека Генералниот секретар на Обединетите нации и премиерот на Атина, од куртоазија за добро извршената домашна задача (за жал без нобелова награда), за помен секоја година венец ќе им полагаат?! Но, во која ли земја и на кое место на земјината топка?

[.....]

[Lügendetektor]

uuuuuuuuups....1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8!!!!

In your view, which is the Macedonian Sun?

some posts above

My opinion is, that the sun is the real symbol of the Macedonians, but i dont fuckin care about the rays, because as it is shown here in the thread, Macedonians did not used exclusively a 16 rayed sun, except, in a era which i mentioned above...but even there it wasnt exclusively a Macedonian symbol.

but just look the picture, amazing, isnt it?

[George S.]

Lugendetektor.Who is talking about the real sun we are talking about a Symbol you are missing the point.Look at the manner we have been made to not to use our Symbol the 16 ray SUN.To you it's all the same that what makes you that you don't care & you say you got the real sun You are totally wrong.The macedonian Sun has 16 rays & we are not allowed to use it.You have missed the whole point alltogether by saying it doesn't matter.You go tell the greeks that they have allready registered the 16 ray symbol as theirs you can kiss it goodbye because people had the same thought as you it doesn't matter.Of course it matters that is if you care.

[DedoAleko]

Бундестагот ќе расправа за македонско-грчкиот спор

Македонско-грчкиот спор за името ќе влезе во германскиот Бундестаг. Германската Влада бара пратениците да помогнат во надминување на проблемот со името со цел да се деблокираат македонските евроинтеграции.

Иницијативата е испратена од германското МНР до пратеникот Штефан Либих, откако паралментарецот ја повика Владата да заземе став по ова прашање и да и се помогне на Македонија.

Во дописот потпишан од министерката Коренлија Пипер, кој го објави порталот и политичкиот магазин “Револуција”, се вели: Владата на Германија го поддржува пристапувањето на Р. Македонија во Унијата. Но и покрај тоа, до сега сеуште не се пристапи кон обврската за почеток со преговорите. Причината за тоа е противењето на Грција, која јасно се произнесува, дека нема да дозволи да се постапи според препораката на Комисијата додека проблемот за името не се реши. Владата согласно своите ингеренции, прашањето за почетокот на преговорите на Македонија за полноправно пристапување во Унијата, ќе предложи да расправа Бундестагот.

Потегот на германската Влада следи откако Либих јавно побара од Ангела Меркел да го искористи својот авторитет во решавање на спорот меѓу Македонија и Грција. Инспириран од анализата на професорот Себастијан Рајнфелдт насловена “Грција нема право да ја блокира Македонија во НАТО и ЕУ“, Либих одржа и цела прес конференција на оваа тема.

- Овој спор меѓу двете соседни држави не е реален. Зарем не треба само вообичаените критериуми за земјите-кандидатки да бидат основа за одлуките на Европската комисија за отпочнување на пристапните преговори и со Република Македонија - вели Либих.

Според Либих најдобар медијатор во спорот би бил ОБСЕ бидејќи во оваа организација двете држави имаат рамноправен статус.

izvor: http://sitel.com.mk/dnevnik/makedoni...-grchkiot-spor

[George S.]

DA that requires macedonia to capitulate & compromise on her name acceptable to greece.