Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Currency Trader]

Vangelovski

I know about the 2007 financial crisis.

If you knew about the 2007 financial crisis, there would be no rational nor logical purpose to ask what happened to Bulgaria after they joined EU in 2007 – I think you should look for evidence supporting your claim that there will be no growth or investments for Macedonia to join EU.

On the contrary, Macedonia will probably receive investments funds from EU on regional development, the so-called ERDF, ESF and Cohesion funding. These funds are provided for countries like Macedonia and are used to develop economic structures, creating jobs, research and innovation, and infrastructure investments. These funds are much needed and would support Macedonia’s development.


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Vangelovski

EU membership has nothing to do with economic growth, it is economic reforms within that particular state. Membership itself does not guarantee anything. In fact, it can lead to dependence on socialist subsidisation and the creation of non-competitive economies as we have seen across Greece, Spain, Portugal and dare I say even Italy and France.

The reforms and strengthening of state structures and institutions, along with favorable taxation is a result of being an aspiring member of EU – the carrot and the stick – This incentive may not have influenced Macedonian government had it not been there.

Secondly, research evidence on new members in 2004 (Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia) have shown that access to EU markets (thru EU agreements) have resulted in substantial growth in trade. Membership brings further trade liberalization regarding sensitive sectors (agriculture, steel, services) and non-tariff barriers as well as a possible reduction of transport costs.

Furthermore, research point to FDI inflows as key driver for economic growth for these new members in the second half of the 1990s. Foreign investors regarded these countries as up-and-coming new EU states with structural improvements such as low cost production, skilled workforce, and EU adapted standards.

A country of such small size as Macedonia would most likely benefit from EU markets. As long as they run the country in proper order, the upside potential outweighs the downside risk.

Now, do you care to share with us the “abundance of evidence” that there will be no growth or investments for Macedonia?


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[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski


If you knew about the 2007 financial crisis, there would be no rational nor logical purpose to ask what happened to Bulgaria after they joined EU in 2007 – I think you should look for evidence supporting your claim that there will be no growth or investments for Macedonia to join EU.

The point was so that you could take a closer look at admit (for a second time) that EU membership had nothing to do with it. Rather, it was domestic economic/legal reforms.

On the contrary, Macedonia will probably receive investments funds from EU on regional development, the so-called ERDF, ESF and Cohesion funding. These funds are provided for countries like Macedonia and are used to develop economic structures, creating jobs, research and innovation, and infrastructure investments. These funds are much needed and would support Macedonia’s development.

Socialist subsidisation that does not promote competitive free markets. Its a poison that Macedonians have only become too accustomed to during communism and now expect everything for nothing as a result.

Vangelovski

The reforms and strengthening of state structures and institutions, along with favorable taxation is a result of being an aspiring member of EU – the carrot and the stick – This incentive may not have influenced Macedonian government had it not been there.

Macedonia does not need the EU to do this, and real reform will only come when Macedonians realise that they need it. They can change as many laws as they like with the "carrot and stick" approach, but noone will pay any attention to them until they, as individuals, realise there is a need for change in order to improve their own circumstances.

Secondly, research evidence on new members in 2004 (Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia) have shown that access to EU markets (thru EU agreements) have resulted in substantial growth in trade. Membership brings further trade liberalization regarding sensitive sectors (agriculture, steel, services) and non-tariff barriers as well as a possible reduction of transport costs.

Furthermore, research point to FDI inflows as key driver for economic growth for these new members in the second half of the 1990s. Foreign investors regarded these countries as up-and-coming new EU states with structural improvements such as low cost production, skilled workforce, and EU adapted standards.

A country of such small size as Macedonia would most likely benefit from EU markets. As long as they run the country in proper order, the upside potential outweighs the downside risk.

Now, do you care to share with us the “abundance of evidence” that there will be no growth or investments for Macedonia?

Trade liberalisation can be acheived without membership. FDI is not the be all and end all of economic growth. Domestic growth is the driver of any economy, not foreign investment. A state can adopt "EU standards" or even better, without becoming an EU member. A country such as Macedonia is likely to become dependent on socialist subsidisation from Brussels further entrenching its non-competitive economy and the welfare mentality. I don't see how these points you make are an "upside" - they only further contribute to the 'downside'.

[George S.]

where is the guarantee that macedonia will improve it could well be the opposite with huge borrowings & probably a default.How do we know greece will not veto macedonia regardless on the name as it's detrmined that it should not enter nato or the eu.
The latest on greece unemployment is 15% how has the eu helped greece.The eu is not as rosy as people make it out to be.Croatia has realised that it is not in their interest to be in the eu.If croatia is not in the eu it could still pick up trade by itself.Also it's called
self preservation it's trying to avoid all the problems that are developing in the eu.The huge debt is getting bigger & bigger with so many countries defaulting.
If macedonia decides not to join the eu it will still survive independently also by not joining the eu it could manage itself better.

[Risto the Great]

As I indicated before. This is not a case of cherry picking the best of the EU arrangements. It is all or nothing. The "all" includes blatant attacks on the sovereignty of Macedonia including it's very name.

If we can exclude (in their entirety) all of the negatives about the name, the insistence on managing the affairs of the ethnic Albanians and the erosion of Macedonia's sovereignty .... I am happy to explore the merits of the debt funded frenzy in economic activity that EU membership guarantees.

[Risto the Great]

If we can exclude (in their entirety) all of the negatives about the name, the insistence on managing the affairs of the ethnic Albanians and the erosion of Macedonia's sovereignty .... I am happy to explore the merits of the debt funded frenzy in economic activity that EU membership guarantees.

CT, are we on the same page here?
Or are you up for it "warts and all" ..... which (translated) means are you up for EU Entry no matter what happens to the nation's sovereignty including its very name?

[Pelister]

If you knew about the 2007 financial crisis, there would be no rational nor logical purpose to ask what happened to Bulgaria after they joined EU in 2007 – I think you should look for evidence supporting your claim that there will be no growth or investments for Macedonia to join EU.

Here we go.

Looking for a hand out are you? Isn't that always the way with you, just another 'Macedonian' talking up membership to the E.U out of context. If the case of Greece, Ireland and Portugal tell us anything it is this much, that financial 'handouts' have little or nothing to do with economic growth, nor economic prosperity.

There is really nothing the E.U can offer Macedonia, economically, that direct foriegn investment (whether it be Slovenian, Turkish, Ukraine ...etc), cannot offer. In fact direct foriegn investment BURIES financial handouts, every time, because of the jobs they create from the ground up, raising the quality of life for many families. The only real outcome we can expect from E.U membership, is a massive increase in the cost of living in the country - making it harder for families to get by, and probably more corruption as politicians line their pockets with 'handouts'.

[Risto the Great]

Greek Politician Branded a Spy for supporting Macedonian resolution

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17949/45/

After Greek nationalists declared him a traitor for supporting EC's resolution on Macedonia, today the media and blogosphere was flooded showing Michail Tremopoulos of Greece's Green party cheering for Macedonia.

The tensions grew rapidly after Tremopoulos visited Macedonia's sister party to Greece's Green party, DOM. Parliament colleagues branded him a spy, while the Macedonians as a friend.

If Greece's green manage to enter parliament with 9 members as the latest poll shows, Macedonian politicians believe Athens might change the climate in its relationship with Macedonia.

However, the ethnic Macedonian organizations in Greece do not believe this to be the case.

- Greece is foreign to democracy, we haven't had it, nor do we expect to have it in the future. In Greece we have two types of nationalism: extreme and less extreme. The Green party pretends to be democratic and pretend to be flexible, however there isn't a single party in Greece that would recognize us, the Macedonians, say sources in Macedonian organizations across Greece.

Tremopoulos did support the Macedonian resolution in the EU, however also supported his Greek and Bulgarian colleagues to remove the term "Macedonian" from the resolution.

Vinozito members sent Tremopoulos a letter of protest, condemning his 'double' move, while Tremopoulous himself claimed he was attacked by both Greek and Macedonian nationalists in the country.

[Risto the Great]

European Parliament on Macedonia

Dear forum participants, I refer you to the following link.
It contains a Draft motion for a resolution on the 2010 progress report on the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia

Basically, a number of recommendations for amendments have been made by various interested parties (guess who mostly). I think it is useful to identify the underlying intentions that can be interpreted from the amendment requests.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+COMPARL+PE-458.767+01+DOC+PDF+V0//EN&language=EN

I bring to your attention one of many amendment requests and note the Greek attempts to not cast a bad light on Greece by removing its name from the attack on Macedonia's sovereignty. It also seeks to make Macedonia solely to blame for this non-existent problem.

ORIGINAL

24.Strongly regrets the fact that the name dispute with Greece continues to block the country’s road to the EU and recalls its recommendation to the Council to start the accession negotiations immediately; however, underlines the importance of good neighbourly relations in this process and calls on the governments to avoid gestures which could have negative effect on them; calls on the two Prime Ministers to show political courage and the willingness to compromise and to swiftly find a formula satisfactory to bothsides;

OR

Amendment 128
Nikolaos Salavrakos,Fiorello Provera
Draft motion for a resolution
Paragraph 24

24. Notes that among other pending issues resolving the name issue is of paramount importance for the European perspective of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and recalls its recommendation to the Council to start the accession negotiations as soon as the country fulfils all the criteria;however,underlines the importance of good neighbourly relations in this process and calls on the authorities of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to avoid gestures which could have negative effect on them; calls on the two Prime Ministers to show political courage and the willingness to compromise and to swiftly find a formula satisfactory to both sides;

MTO Inc. will comment further in relation to this matter, but I bring the document to your attention so as to highlight the obvious dynamics going on publicly from countries like Greece and Bulgaria. I personally found it quite interesting and have identified some new people to keep an eye on in the future.

p.s. Feel free to search for the word "antiquisation" and see who brings it up.

[George S.]

The greeks are very good at lying & they are suceeding to prevent macedonia being recognised by organisations such as the eu or nato.The proof is that macedonia is very weak at the presentation stakes,either that no one will beleive them.Greece on the otherhand is able to turn & twist things around to her advantage.Coupled with the fact that greece is medling & interfeering at all levels so that macedonia will not be recognized or admitted even under fyrom name.It's like trying to play chess but we have been checkmated before we start.Greece has the advantage of pretending to be the victim & macedonia is the one that's breaking the rules.How can you win like that.

[fyrOM]

Greece is foreign to democracy, we haven't had it, nor do we expect to have it in the future. In Greece we have two types of nationalism: extreme and less extreme.

I just wonder what's going to happen inn Greece when Macedonia is internationally recognised by her rightful name in the near future?

[TrueMacedonian]

MEP Kacin proposes 'Our Macedonia'

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17960/45/

MEP Kacin proposes 'Our Macedonia'


Thursday, 14 April 2011


MEP Jelko Kacin called Wednesday for urgent settlement of Macedonia's name issue at a conference on Western Balkans, organized by the European Parliament and Hungary's EU Presidency.

The name issue has been obstructing Macedonia's EU-integration for six years now, Kacin said, pointing out the need of altering the approach to the negotiations on compromise solution in favor of putting an end to the long-lasting blockade. He offered the name 'Our Macedonia' as an alternative for settling the matter.

"Today I wish to be provocative. I wish for both parties to change their view on the problem. From this spot today I invite Skopje and Athens to review the alternative name proposal 'Our Macedonia'. Why 'Our Macedonia'? There are three regions in the neighbourhood that bear the name Macedonia. The name 'Our Macedonia' by definition denies any territorial aspiration of present Republic of Macedonia towards these regions. Everybody could live with that name," said the Vice-chairman of the EP Delegation to South-East Europe.

If previous proposals have been fruitless, a new one will have to succeed, Kacin said, pointing out that vision, political courage are required for breaking up the vicious circle.

"Macedonia is our European country and we wish for it to promptly return to the road towards the EU membership," 'Our Kacin' said.

[TrueMacedonian]

This is becoming absolutely ridiculous.

[Voltron]

Agreed ^ It is getting pretty stupid.

[Ljubanec]

This was a lot funnier when all we had to contend with was hypernationalist Greek politicians and corrupt Macedonian Politicians.

This is a joke! These politicians have no clue!

[Currency Trader]

Vanglovski

EU membership had nothing to do with it. Rather, it was domestic economic/legal reforms.

Economic/legal reforms were adapted, developed and put to work to qualify THE status as EU member. No matter how you try to spin this, Bulgaria’s development is due to EU requirements for membership.

Again, research evidence on new members in 2004 (Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia) have shown that access to EU markets (thru EU agreements) have resulted in substantial growth in trade.

Furthermore, research point to FDI inflows as key driver for economic growth for these new members in the second half of the 1990s. Foreign investors regarded these countries as up-and-coming new EU states with structural improvements such as low cost production, skilled workforce, and EU adapted standards.

Membership brings further trade liberalization regarding sensitive sectors (agriculture, steel, services) and non-tariff barriers as well as a possible reduction of transport costs.


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Vanglovski

Macedonia does not need the EU to do this, and real reform will only come when Macedonians realise that they need it. They can change as many laws as they like with the "carrot and stick" approach, but noone will pay any attention to them until they, as individuals, realise there is a need for change in order to improve their own circumstances.

Macedonia is changing and this process needs the advice, know-how and guidance of how to reform and build state institutions that are EU adapted. Eventually, anybody can realize that they need reforms, but how to do it in the most efficient way is another question. That’s where EU standards come in.


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Vanglovski

Trade liberalisation can be acheived without membership.

Share with us the growth rate of these trade liberalisations without membership?


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Vanglovski

A country such as Macedonia is likely to become dependent on socialist subsidisation from Brussels further entrenching its non-competitive economy and the welfare mentality. I don't see how these points you make are an "upside" - they only further contribute to the 'downside'.

Tell me one industrialized country that does not provide any sort of subsidy? Check your own country for clues.

Most developing countries need outside capital to support their initial phases, and Macedonia is no exception. The support of investment funds from EU is just one source of funding and it doesn’t necessarily mean the country will become or stay non-competitive. Responsible governments usually strive for a competitive economy. This government has shown that they can make reforms and strengthen state institutions according to EU standards.


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Vanglovski

FDI is not the be all and end all of economic growth. Domestic growth is the driver of any economy, not foreign investment.

The driver of output over time is accumulation of labour and capital as well as technical progress. While domestic consumption is dominant, Macedonia will likely need foreign investments to establish new businesses and new jobs that will spur future domestic growth. Domestic growth will need more jobs, and more jobs will need more investments, something that is scarce in Macedonia, specifically private investments.



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