Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[fyrOM]

Guys, Im not debating if it was right or wrong to do what Gruevski wanted to do. What Im saying is that his timing was way off. He could of done all of that AFTER he was admitted to NATO. What was the rush ? And the Expressways ? I mean I take the I-90 or I-355 what the heck is Philip to route Alexander ? It was done out of spite to get a reaction, and he did.

If in 20 years this did not happen how long do you think would have been reasonable to wait to be the appropriate timing to use x to name anything.

If the Only way the Greeks would permit entry to nato is a change of name of the country then waiting to use x as a name on a road after the change looks just stupid and pathetic.

Voltron you are sort of right in thinking what does a modern road need to be named after some ancient person…in fact I999 would be perfectly good. Ofcourse if the modern road was being built over an ancient road built by person x then choosing to name the new road x also makes sense but this is Not the case with many of the modern roads so what purpose would it be to name the new road x…maybe just to get a reaction or spite…possibly.

But could another reason exist. Can you imagine how it looks to the world if on one side of the fence no mention of x exists anywhere in the whole place while if someone looked over the other side of the fence saw every road building or even tree marked x. Who looks like they have pride in x and a sense of connection with x and whose argument looks more correct even though the label x was only put up in 1988. If you leave out the last bit x looks like he clearly belongs on one side of the fence yet include this fact and the argument looks hollow.

If you don’t open your mouth people will say its your own fault for not speaking up yet to be slapped in the mouth every time you want to speak does not prove the argument for the other side nor excuse the slap in the mouth.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

If in 20 years this did not happen how long do you think would have been reasonable to wait to be the appropriate timing to use x to name anything.

He didnt have to wait 20 years. It was within a few at the most. Im assuming he knew that NATO candidancy would be scheduled in 2008. I dont remember if the renaming frenzy took place before or after the USA recognized Macedonia by its constitutional name. But to try to bank on the USA (George W Bush) and his NeoCon buddies to tell Greece to fuck off , was a miscalculation on his part. Allies dont work like that. We tried the same approach against Turkey and its failed each time. Usually they will keep a measured distance between both allies until they find a solution amongst themselves.

If the Only way the Greeks would permit entry to nato is a change of name of the country then waiting to use x as a name on a road after the change looks just stupid and pathetic.

If he was deadset on doing it, then he should of waited. Thats what I would of done.

Voltron you are sort of right in thinking what does a modern road need to be named after some ancient person…in fact I999 would be perfectly good. Ofcourse if the modern road was being built over an ancient road built by person x then choosing to name the new road x also makes sense but this is Not the case with many of the modern roads so what purpose would it be to name the new road x…maybe just to get a reaction or spite…possibly.

It was out of spite. Thats for sure.

But could another reason exist. Can you imagine how it looks to the world if on one side of the fence no mention of x exists anywhere in the whole place while if someone looked over the other side of the fence saw every road building or even tree marked x. Who looks like they have pride in x and a sense of connection with x and whose argument looks more correct even though the label x was only put up in 1988. If you leave out the last bit x looks like he clearly belongs on one side of the fence yet include this fact and the argument looks hollow.

Most people from the outside dont have a clue of whats going on. Even today this name dispute is beyond them. So I dont think that would matter to them at all.

[Serdarot]

Според горе напишаното може само да се заклулчи дека Р. Македонија е прилично илегална, шо е и не така одалечено од вистината. Илегална влада, илегално знаме, илегално ова илегално она. И сето овоа е тврдење на некој шо не ни живее у државата, питање дали некогаш бирал влада во Р. Македонија или гласал за било шо. Исто како да ѓи слушам и негаторите на Р. Маќедонија, нолгу разлика и нема.

Исто сето горе наведено може да е гнасно, ама исто толку гнасно е и самио факт дека во Македонска секција на форумо се користи туѓ јазик за да се наводно бранат Маќедонските интереси, од големите Маќедонци. Филотас синдром можеби? Стварно иронична работа. И ако некој ми дое со фината дека има нолгу МК патриоти шо не зборат Маќедонски и дека тоа не е предиспозиција за патриотизам, тогајка ја се питам кој кур сме горди на факто дека јазико не се сменил песто години, ко истио јазик големите патриоти го сменија за туѓ за само две три генерации и едвај скинат збор на Маќедонски. Најубаво да се преименува секцијата у нешо друго, оти очиглено не е баш "На Македонски".

Дефинитивно.

Нека Швабите речат еднаш и официјално Маќедониа, иако веќе скоро секаде у Швабија го користат нашето име Мќедониа а не срамната кратенката.

Bravo za muabeto

Vistina e deka mnogu Makedonci vo stranstvo ne znat Makedonski, ama nikoj ne im brani da go nauchat jazikot.

Tie sho me znat malku poubo, znat deka edna od dvete prichini poradi koi koristam Latinica namesto Kirilica, se tokmu tie lugje koi ne razbiraat Kirilica, i slabo razbiraat Makedonski.

Za jazikot ne e samo Vangelovski kabaet, i moja greshka e sho ne primetiv vo koj del na forumot e temava, pa koristev "drajvanje so karo po strito da razberit chichka pipl".

Vo sekoj sluchaj, Blago Daram za podrshkata, od imeto na sekoj Makedonec

[fyrOM]

He didnt have to wait 20 years. It was within a few at the most. Im assuming he knew that NATO candidancy would be scheduled in 2008. I dont remember if the renaming frenzy took place before or after the USA recognized Macedonia by its constitutional name. But to try to bank on the USA (George W Bush) and his NeoCon buddies to tell Greece to fuck off , was a miscalculation on his part. Allies dont work like that. We tried the same approach against Turkey and its failed each time. Usually they will keep a measured distance between both allies until they find a solution amongst themselves.

Your not into politics are you Voltron…a bunch of double speak that says a lot with out saying anything. Your brighter than that and you know the implications of both actions and inactions.

If he was deadset on doing it, then he should of waited. Thats what I would of done.

Getting into nato was NEVER going to happen until either winning the name game or giving up and changing the name so what you prescribing is a delay in perpetuity in naming anything in Macedonia with x while at the same time Greece continues to name everything x and copyrights names and words…get real Voltron too smart by half…then on one side of the fence everything is Macedonian and promoted to the world that way while the other side stays mute…and that’s supposed to help our situation.

It was out of spite. Thats for sure.

Spite is malice...not trying to save your own. Spite is insisting that only wines from Aegean Macedonia can be labeled Macedonian even though the convention in naming wines is by regional name…so regardless if RoM people are Macedonian or not the region still is and stupidity is the acceptance of Greece’s claims by the eu but we all know many decisions have more to do with politics and less to do with right and justice.

Most people from the outside dont have a clue of whats going on. Even today this name dispute is beyond them.

That’s the point. Because they don’t have a clue doesn’t mean they have lost there ability to reason and if everything is labeled Macedonia on one side and nothing on the other is it not reasonable to conclude the other is not Macedonia. But hey more than 2 thirds of the countries in the un have recognized Macedonia so maybe they are not as dumb as you think.

So I dont think that would matter to them at all.

It does matter to foreigners who want to travel or try produce or are interested in education but more importantly it matters to the Greeks and Macedonians and that’s the whole point…come buy produce from me come spend your tourist dollars at my place the fact I pulled a shifty on you just makes it sweeter when I pocket your money.

Really these responses are beneath you…go and have a coffee…it must have been late when you wrote this.

[Voltron]

[QUOTE]

Your not into politics are you Voltron…a bunch of double speak that says a lot with ought saying anything. Your brighter than that and you know the implications of both actions and inactions.

No Im not a politician Ozi, but it doesnt take a brain surgeon to try and predict consequences of certain actions. We had similar problems with our neighbor Turkey and most of what I said is based on those experiences. It is no secret Gruevski had everything going on George W and Condoleeza. Even now, why do you think you have troops in Afghanistan ?

Getting into nato was NEVER going to happen until either winning the name game or giving up and changing the name so what you prescribing is a delay in perpetuity in naming anything in Macedonia with x while at the same time Greece continues to name everything x and copyrights names and words…get real Voltron too smart by half…then on one side of the fence everything is Macedonian and promoted to the world that way while the other side stays mute…and that’s supposed to help our situation.

What I meant is that it would of made our job that much harder had Greece been not provoked. Thats all.

Spite is malice...not trying to save your own. Spite is insisting that only wines from Aegean Macedonia can be labeled Macedonian even though the convention in naming wines is by regional name…so regardless if RoM people are Macedonian or not the region still is and stupidity is the acceptance of Greece’s claims by the eu but we all know many decisions have more to do with politics and less to do with right and justice.

The wine issue although a good one is not related to the topic we started. We were discussing about NATO entry and the subsequent court decision.

That’s the point. Because they don’t have a clue doesn’t mean they have lost there ability to reason and if everything is labeled Macedonia on one side and nothing on the other is it not reasonable to conclude the other is not Macedonia. But hey more than 2 thirds of the countries in the un have recognized Macedonia so maybe they are not as dumb as you think.

Its exactly this sidestepping that has been viewed with suspicion. I mean why sign an agreement then try everything in your power to avoid it ? Going around signing bilateral agreements and then flipping the finger is going to help any. Not only that, but I dont think that even if you took it to the UN it would get passed. France is in the UN and other countries that understand Greece's sensitivities. Everyone knows that this is a national issue for Greece. I find it extremely hard to believe that this would pass in the UN at the expense to Greece. I havnt seen that happen for a long time.

It does matter to foreigners who want to travel or try produce or are interested in education but more importantly it matters to the Greeks and Macedonians and that’s the whole point…come buy produce from me come spend your tourist dollars at my place the fact I pulled a shifty on you just makes it sweeter when I pocket your money.

Greeks and Macedonians have no problems between themselves. This is a fact. I have been there. There is everyday commerce and relations being built at a grassroots level. The rest is politics.

Really these responses are beneath you…go and have a coffee…it must have been late when you wrote this.

You probably took it the wrong way. Right now its evening and instead of a coffee Im having a beer.

[George S.]

Voltron greece is scared of macedonia making it into nato or eu because it will spill the beans on greece.Greece is a big liar a big thief any everything vial under the sun.Greece doesn't want the world to know it is running & hiding.Macedonia is the opposite it is not runnin & nothing to hide.

[Vangelovski]

Between the three of you, you still have not explained why you have accepted a symbol of treason, rather you have chosen to disengeniously defend it. Accepting a symbol that was FORCED onto us is a direct contradiction to defending a name that has been FREELY CHOSEN.

As for speaking Macedonian, Makedonin, you could at least spell MAKEDONIJA correctly and use standard Macedonian rather than your village dialect before you criticise others. As for my Macedonian language skills, they are sharp enough to pick up the spelling, gramatical errors and Serbianisms in yours.

[fyrOM]

it doesnt take a brain surgeon to try and predict consequences of certain actions

Voltron if your not in politics you should get into it because you conveniently avoided ever point with double speak…but they would only give you a junior job…you need to improve your double speak.

The politics that makes the world go around is one thing and the truth comes a poor second or third but it doesn’t negate the truth entirely…there needs to be some substance there to spin …I doubt a couple of hundred soldiers would really making a huge difference if there was absolutely nothing the usa could use to justify their recognizing Macedonia by that name.

What I meant is that it would of made our job that much harder had Greece been not provoked. Thats all.

I have to laugh…it made your job that much more harder…you were already naming everything in sight as Macedonian and copyrighting names symbols and company name…how did Macedonia make it harder on Greece…by making them rush the copyrighting procedures instead of doing it at the Greek leasurly pace.hahaha

But more to the point you are skipping over the core of the issue and that is the Greek side was happily labeling and copyrighting everything as Macedonian and if Macedonia remained mute it would be a clear sign to all that they are not really interested in the name which then has a direct impact on which side the west is going to apply the most pressure on to compromise…calling self promotion and self pride a provocation is a red herring to save face…obviously it is the only thing you could call it but in no way would it have made any difference to softening Greeces stance had Macedonia stayed mute….in fact I think it would have been a green light for Greece to go even harder.

The wine issue although a good one is not related to the topic we started. We were discussing about NATO entry and the subsequent court decision.

This thread is about the optimism about a name settlement so all matters relating to the name are fair go but even if we limited it to the nato issue again it leads back to the name.

You say it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to predict consequences yet you conveniently skip the point the only way a so called provocation could not have happened is if Macedonia remained mute and what would the consequences have been for Macedonia had she done so…and ofcourse consequential what they would have been for Greece.

Your assertion was that the so called provocation was out of spite and I replied it has nothing to do with spite…its not like Macedonia really doesn’t care about the name but will name roads ect with historical individuals just to stir the Greeks…ehy wake up its not spite if Macedonia cares about the name and is taking steps to protect her own. I find it hilarious your impression on these events is it was out of spite…don’t listen to Crvenkovski that Macedonians don’t care about the name he is a slut that would sell his mother wife and children if there was a euro for him.

I mean why sign an agreement then try everything in your power to avoid it ?

Are you playing possum or do you really think the Macedonians were going to give up the name Macedonia and change it some prefix or suffix or some completely new name.

The un is not like the eu a unanimous vote is not needed and greeces old friend veto doesn’t count so even if there are a few countries who as you understand Greeces sensitivities they become irrelevant if the majority are supporting Macedonia. France is the only real stumbling block but their French…what can one say in an ever increasingly English world France is becoming irrelevant as a world power…so they need to do a song and dance to puff themselves up for a while but will eventually fall into line once the French banks ect have been taken care of. Getting passed in the UN is not that big a deal.

Greeks and Macedonians have no problems between themselves. This is a fact. I have been there. There is everyday commerce and relations being built at a grassroots level. The rest is politics.

Life sometime goes easier if you work with people you like but the reality is you don’t need to like someone to work with them nor to sell the a product. Quashing Macedonians efforts in the name issue is not about pride…at least not to those in power…but about the right to produce…Aegean Macedonia is the breadbasket for Greece…and sell produce and tourism on a practical commercial level but the most important issue is to be able to still claim there is no Macedonian minority in Greece and justify their occupation. Imagine for a moment if everyone in the world recognized Macedonia what would it mean for Greeces hold on Augean Macedonia like you said you don’t need to be a brain surgeon to try and predict the consequences.

Right now its evening and instead of a coffee Im having a beer.

What’s your favorite beer by the way.

[makedonin]

Абе Вангелчо, оше не си разбрал една основна работа, а тоа е дека џабе се прчеш и дигаш галама, никој нити ти долже било шо да ти објаснува, нити те шмиргла два посто. Расфрлаш се со некој големи збороји мислеш господ за мудата си го фанал. А шо се однесува за мојо селски диалект со српски примеси, поарно е на селски ама Маќедонски у Маќедонска секција отколку на туѓ јазик по свој избор. Бар нема да бидам тај шо допринел јазико да исчезне, за разлика од некој како тебе шо се курче за маќедонштина а прв/мајчин јазик му е некој диалект од англискио. Да се утепа човек од смеење.

Ај шетај, летај и не ми сметај, само прогласен полицајец на маќедонштината.

[Vangelovski]

Абе Вангелчо, оше не си разбрал една основна работа, а тоа е дека џабе се прчеш и дигаш галама, никој нити ти долже било шо да ти објаснува, нити те шмиргла два посто. Расфрлаш се со некој големи збороји мислеш господ за мудата си го фанал. А шо се однесува за мојо селски диалект со српски примеси, поарно е на селски ама Маќедонски у Маќедонска секција отколку на туѓ јазик по свој избор. Бар нема да бидам тај шо допринел јазико да исчезне, за разлика од некој како тебе шо се курче за маќедонштина а прв/мајчин јазик му е некој диалект од англискио. Да се утепа човек од смеење.

Ај шетај, летај и не ми сметај, само прогласен полицајец на маќедонштината.

I write in English so that all forum members can understand. If my Macedonian was as bad as you claim, I wouldn't be able to understand a word you have written, and yet not only can I understand what you have written, but I can pick out your spelling and grammatical errors and your non-Macedonian words. For someone who feels they can criticise others' Macedonian language skills, you should at least master the language yourself. The worst of it is that you have misspelled the name of the very country you purport to defend.

[makedonin]

Ванѓеле, знаеш шо? Заболел ме стојко од кој причини не пишеш на Маќедонски или шо мислеш општо. Ако оде по мене можеш и на Клингонски да продужеш, нема да не можам да спијам поради тоа. Ѕврцни една раќија и опушти се, треба ти.

[Vangelovski]

Ванѓеле, знаеш шо? Заболел ме стојко од кој причини не пишеш на Маќедонски или шо мислеш општо. Ако оде по мене можеш и на Клингонски да продужеш, нема да не можам да спијам поради тоа. Ѕврцни една раќија и опушти се, треба ти.

If someone looked up the word contradiction in the dictionary they would find a picture of you.

[Risto the Great]

Are people still arguing that the ventilator is good because it is still a sun? Or is it because it somehow is connected to Macedonia.

I would be just as happy with this:



Especially if someone else made me choose it.
How happy .... not happy at all.

[George S.]

Isn't it crazy RTG that because of greece's constant interference we adopted the ventilator.We should know to have told greece off we can use any symball they should learn to accept it & get a life.The same goes for our name.Where was greece when macedonia conquered her in the battle of charonea.Why didn't they claim the name macedonia then

[makedonin]

I would be just as happy with this

Шо и да те праве среќен Ристе....

Especially if someone else made me choose it.
How happy .... not happy at all.

Матрикс ја обработи темата прилично добро, посебно фторио дел, шо ќе кажеш на тоа Колку од нас имаме слободна воља, колку од нас имаме можност за бирање, се е у Матриксо

"Freedom to speak the words that they will bend, freedom of choice that's made for you and me my friend" Metallica - And justice for All