Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have never once considered parting with my Macedonian identity and I consider the notion an insult. Our ancestors retained it in the harshest times, and now someone is just going to throw it away because they've 'had enough'? Give me a break. Even if it is a temporary notion, I think it says more about the character of an individual rather than his sense of Macedonian identity.

[Serdarot]

...

Pelister is correct when he implies the Macedonians from Former Yugoslavia would not understand the Egej point of view. Where Mothers, children, brothers and sisters all torn apart over identity, and after that being mistreated by both sides all their lives, and lets not mention the atrocious times they went through prior to all this back in Greek occupied Macedonia.

...

i will not comment on Pelisterīs statement.

but the bold is not corect.

same story is all over Macedonia. pls do not underestimate the sufferings that all Macedonians suffered.

[Bill77]

i will not comment on Pelisterīs statement.

but the bold is not corect.

same story is all over Macedonia. pls do not underestimate the sufferings that all Macedonians suffered.

I am sure they have suffered aswel. But we can't compare which evil was worse. I don't think the Macedonians from egej migrating to Former Yugoslavia were worse off.

[Bill77]

I have never once considered parting with my Macedonian identity and I consider the notion an insult. Our ancestors retained it in the harshest times, and now someone is just going to throw it away because they've 'had enough'? Give me a break. Even if it is a temporary notion, I think it says more about the character of an individual rather than his sense of Macedonian identity.

I never suggested that.

As i said, " you can't turn off what you really are like a light switch" what you are is what you are.

What has crossed my mind "Momentarily" is fighting. Its natural to fall when you get kicked in the gut. But a true trooper would get up again and keep going.

[Vangelovski]

From his post, I don't think Pelister was talking about himself.

However, I think he raises a very important point. Although there are many Macedonians that will never give up their Macedonian identity, experience has demonstrated that there are many that will - and for less. I think it is a huge disconnect from reality to think that Macedonia changing its name will not have a devastating psychological impact on many Macedonians.

We have people in Macedonia and the diaspora who claim to be Macedonians, but are actually experiencing an identity crisis. Some are still toying with the idea of being Serb, Bulgarian or Greek.

In the Republic itself, many consider Serbian culture as more 'civilised' and/or 'popular' than Macedonian culture. People "jokingly" speak Serbian. Seeing as identity is heavily influenced by culture, I wonder how much it would take for someone who appreciates Serbian culture, speaks Serbian, sympathises with Serbian political views to actually begin identifing as Serbian? Perhaps a better question is, what is Macedonian about him?

In one of my trips to Macedonia, I came across a couple of villages in Ohrid where many of the locals considered themselves to be Bulgarians. In my mother's home village (in the Struga region) I had Macedonians telling me that they would learn Albanian and convert to Islam if it mean't a higher standard of living. Then there are those who lament the fall of Yugoslavia and wish that Tito lived forever.

I have even come across Macedonians in Australia, some of who were born here AFTER Yugoslavia collapsed, that consider Yugoslavia as some sort of golden age and the Serbs as our "brothers" or "cousins".

Although many of us are committed to our Macedonian identity, there are many who, once you scratch beneath the surface, are not. What kind of an impact would a name change have on them?

[Risto the Great]

Quite simply, a strong Macedonia would ensure this very real scenario by Vangelovski never happens. Conversely, a weak Macedonia will ensure the wishy washy misery of Macedonian "questionism" will continue indefinitely. My fear is that there won't be enough time to get strong before the name is sold by some pigs.

Let it be said, the bizarre relationship with Serbia via Yugoslavia is something that is foreign to Egejci and the single biggest divide between the 2 largest groups of Macedonians.

[Phoenix]

Let it be said, the bizarre relationship with Serbia via Yugoslavia is something that is foreign to Egejci and the single biggest divide between the 2 largest groups of Macedonians.

I'm not sure if we're making too big a deal of this 'relationship' with Serbia/Serbs, sure there are some ties with some people through marriage and such and then there's those that listen to serb music but I'm not convinced that this 'relationship' goes any deeper, or to the extent that Macedonians are choosing to be 'serbs' in any significant numbers...

Risto, in sheer numbers I would argue that Egejci wanting to be 'greek' far out number Vardarci that want to be 'serbs'...personally, I would like to see both groups go to hell...

[Prolet]

Phoenix, Even before the break up of SFRJ there were tensions on the sidelines.

YouTube - Komiti: Jas te ebam Srbija

[Ljubanec]

Phoenix, Even before the break up of SFRJ there were tensions on the sidelines.

YouTube - Komiti: Jas te ebam Srbija

I will watch your video Prolet but all in all soccer hooliginism is pretty rough and anti-social.If you saw how Shkembari and Vardar fans reacted toward each other you would think Bitola and Skopje were at war with each other.

This video has an obvious social/moral message. I agree with the message, but unfortunately this group is not as popular as Ceca is in Macedonia.

YouTube - Baklava - Naseto selo

With that said, I think Macedonia should look for other options. I still think we should work harder against corruption in Macedonia even though the E.U. obviously doesn't care about the level of corruption in Greece Bulgaria, and Romania. Where is the (non-binding) resolution from the ICJ?

This ongoing "discusion " over our name was never equitable, never between two equal nations. It was never about the law or justice, it was about Greek Racism, xenophobia, facism and intolerance. It is bullshit......but it isn't about Masons or Jewish people either

[Risto the Great]

I'm not sure if we're making too big a deal of this 'relationship' with Serbia/Serbs, sure there are some ties with some people through marriage and such and then there's those that listen to serb music but I'm not convinced that this 'relationship' goes any deeper, or to the extent that Macedonians are choosing to be 'serbs' in any significant numbers...

I think the relationship extends deeper than that. Macedonia is still weaning itself from the approval of Big Brother Serbia in many ways. I don't think these (not all) Macedonians choose to be Serbs at all. I do think they feel inferior to the Serbs, which is far worse in my mind because they are no good for anybody .... not a good Serb and a bloody useless Macedonian.

Risto, in sheer numbers I would argue that Egejci wanting to be 'greek' far out number Vardarci that want to be 'serbs'...personally, I would like to see both groups go to hell...

Oh there is no doubt about that. But then again, Tito didn't move 1 million odd Serbs into Macedonia and get them to spy on the Macedonians 80 years ago. They are very different circumstances.

But I agree, they are not desirable .... just more predictable in Egej.

[Serdarot]

what Vangelovski wrote about the people in Ohrid - Struga region i guess is corect.

i dont know many people who think they are bulgarians, but i know many who are simply addoring the "divine serbs"

unfortunately, even few members of my family can be counted between them. (actualy they are from my wifeīs family, but we are family now... so it is my family...)

60 years of brainwashing have their results

[Pelister]

We are all doing something to defend our history, defend our rights and challenge the colonial propaganda of our neighbors and the ruthless suppression of our cultural identity. I'm not surprised that Macedonians could lose courage and heart. Because this Greek citizen (Gruevski) doesn't have a problem putting our political existence into real time play, exposing everything countless Macedonians have died for and suffered for over the last century, to a whim, or the stroke of a pen.

[Pelister]

Quite simply, a strong Macedonia would ensure this very real scenario by Vangelovski never happens. Conversely, a weak Macedonia will ensure the wishy washy misery of Macedonian "questionism" will continue indefinitely. My fear is that there won't be enough time to get strong before the name is sold by some pigs.

Let it be said, the bizarre relationship with Serbia via Yugoslavia is something that is foreign to Egejci and the single biggest divide between the 2 largest groups of Macedonians.

That is what I want to see more than anything. I want to see a strong State which means strong centralized control, and a government developing Christian Macedonian villages in the region, so that they hold onto their territory.

Over the last decade they have brought about the opposite of that. They have been decentralizing power, devolving control and jurisdiction to create an 'open society', but the phrase 'open society' is just a euphamism of sorts for Federalization along ethnic lines. The government is only creating enormous trouble down the road with the Albanians by giving them so much autonomy. I havn't seen them do anything to remove the cause of the problem - Albanian separatism.

[Prolet]

Ljubanec, Dont be so sure about that, look at the date it was just before the break up of SFRJ. If Macedonia was so pro Serbian then nobody would be chanting that sort of stuff, im not suggesting there arnt Srbomani in Stari Kraj because there are, but they are mainly in the Kumanovo region and some are around Skopje and other cities within Macedonia. The Komiti-Chkembari fighting is just about rivalry you get that in every country in the world from Europe,Asia,Africa,South America even Australia, this was totally different it was at a period where tensions were brewing and nobody knew what was going to happen.

Who do you think Johan Tarculovski is and where does he come from? Who do you think fought in the 2001 conflict in Ljubanci and Ljuboten? In Tetovo there was mainly Vojvodi from the Macedonian side.

[Makedonetz]

No progress in name talks despite frequent meetings between Papandreou and Gruevski -

Athens, 13 January 2011 (MIA) - No substantial progress has been made in the Greece-Macedonia name talks in spite of frequent meetings held between countries' premiers - George Papandreou and Nikola Gruevski, Greek daily "Kathimerini" reports Thursday.

Furthermore, "Eleftherotypia" newspaper reports that the National Council on Foreign Policy at a session on Tuesday had reached a conclusion that Greece would not allow its northern neighbour to join EU and NATO if a mutually acceptable name solution was not found.

Greek media report that the new round of name talks scheduled by mediator Matthew Nimetz with countries' name representatives on Feb. 9 in New York comes after a long period of complete stagnation of the UN-brokered process. Mediator's upcoming meeting with the negotiators has been postponed twice, since it was originally scheduled on Jan. 10 and then on Jan. 27, it has been reported. ba/fd/13:09


When will the ride stop of lies and BS