Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

Supporting Macedonian sovereignty doesn't negate the need of International Laws that regulate the disputes between two countries.

I does in these specific circumstances. The Interim Accord is not a dispute between two countries, it is a direct VIOLATION of our national sovereignty and our natural rights. There are no competing legitimate claims or "greivances" that need outside arbitration in this case. YOU are directly placing matters of national sovereignty into the hands of unaccountable third parties.

Does this mean that any example of breaking the legal order in a country is an evidence that we shouldn't have such regulations?

If international laws were ignored to the extent you suggest we wouldn't even have Macedonian minority organisations in Greece or Bulgaria.



I asked how will you protect the interest of our minorities?

You basicaly suggested we shouldn't bother at all with them.

Are you going to force another state to respect your minority and how?

Your suggestion was that the Macedonian minority could be protected if Macedonia was to accept the jurisdiction of an international court in relation to the Interim Accord. This is ridiculous.

Greece and Bulgaria already ignore decisions made by international courts when it comes to their minorities, so why keep repeating the same action and expect a different result? I would rather support actions of civil disobedience and other means of non-violent resistance, for example, by the Macedonian minority in Greece and Bulgaria, which are more likely to result in improved human rights than banging the same drum which has been a failure to date.

[Vangelovski]

Ok, then employ your decission to have all countries and institutions (UN, FIBA, FIFA, etc. etc) recognize our name and unblock our assosiation with the international organisations we assumingly want to be part of.

Asking a third party to execute duties of another country is not illegitimate action.

Bratot,

Greece has already blocked our membership of NATO and will do the same in the EU, with or without the Interim Accord.

As for organisations we are already a member of, IT IS AS SIMPLE AS PROVIDING A DIPLOMATIC NOTE STATING THAT WE ARE TO BE REFERED TO AS MACEDONIA FROM NOW ON. This has also been demonstrated to be the accepted process in another thread for states that have changed their names in the past.

Asking a third party to decide on matters that can ONLY BE DECIDED ON BY THE BODY OF CITIZENS IS ILLEGITIMATE!

[Bill77]

He also clearly indicated that he intended to change the name.

i don't see it that way, mabe i have understanding issues.

But i am only refering to his latest speech The annual address in parliament.

To my understanding, its clear that as long as he is President, claiming to being "the guardian of our national sovereignty and our national dignity", he will not accept a solution that touches upon Macedonian identity, Macedonian language. (which is why i think as long as he is around there will never be a solution, a name change) Clearly he understands that Our Name reflects an essential part of the Macedonian identity.

of course he could be lying through his teeth, but i am only discussing what was most recently said, and how it is interpreted.

he hasn't made clear (Gruevski either), is WHY they are negotiating

This could be one reason why,

Ivanov
All these meetings and visits had one and the same purpose, to represent our country in a decent manner and to advocate its strategic interests. The leading objective of my international activity primarily was to embody Macedonia as a peace-loving country contributing to the regional stability.

even though the Macedonian people are against it?

Well the people need to take to the streets and start burning cars like the rest of Europeans do when they are not happy.

Now to blame this negotiations entirely on Ivanov, can someone answer has he got the authority to pull the country away from these talks? or is he limited to only certain constitutional responsibilities.

[Bratot]

I does in these specific circumstances. The Interim Accord is not a dispute between two countries, it is a direct VIOLATION of our national sovereignty and our natural rights. There are no legitimate "greivances" that need outside arbitration in this case. YOU are directly placing matters of national sovereignty into the hands of unaccountable third parties.

The IA is result of the previous violation that came with our admission to the UN.

You're little bit of lost.

Your suggestion was that the Macedonian minority could be protected if Macedonia was to accept the jurisdiction of an international court in relation to the Interim Accord. This is ridiculous.

Wrong.
I was talking in general aspect of the IL that you reject only on basis of IA.

Did other consequences followed as result of the IA and could you name them?

Greece and Bulgaria already ignore decisions made by international courts when it comes to their minorities, so why keep repeating the same action and expect a different result? I would rather support actions of civil disobedience and other means of non-violent resistance, for example, by the Macedonian minority in Greece and Bulgaria, which are more likely to result in improved human rights.

And why not both methods?

[Vangelovski]

The IA is result of the previous violation that came with our admission to the UN.

That does not add anything. It is still a violation of our national sovereignty and natural rights.

I was talking in general aspect of the IL that you reject only on basis of IA.

I reject the idea that international law can override national sovereignty. There will always be matters that are appropriately dealt with through arbitration, however, there are matters that can ONLY be dealt with by the sovereign body of citizens. The Interim Accord is one of these as it consists of matters relating to our national sovereignty and natural rights.

Did other consequences followed as result of the IA and could you name them?

I don't understand?

And why not both methods?

Waste of limited resources trying the same old thing and expecting a different result.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Greece has already blocked our membership of NATO and will do the same in the EU, with or without the Interim Accord.

So where is the exercise of our sovereingty in this case?

Are we able to remove this obstacle alone or we do need a help of some other body?

As for organisations we are already a member of, IT IS AS SIMPLE AS PROVIDING A DIPLOMATIC NOTE STATING THAT WE ARE TO BE REFERED TO AS MACEDONIA FROM NOW ON. This has also been demonstrated to be the accepted process in another thread for states that have changed their names in the past.

We are not regular case as the two resolutions of our admmision clearly state for additional obligations contrary to the UN Charter.

Until we release ourselfs from those resolutions such letter wont have any effect.

Asking a third party to decide on matters that can ONLY BE DECIDED ON BY THE BODY OF CITIZENS IS ILLEGITIMATE!

We are not asking anyone to decide on our matters but to act in accordance of our interests and execute duties of the second party.

[Vangelovski]

So where is the exercise of our sovereingty in this case?

Are we able to remove this obstacle alone or we do need a help of some other body?

Becoming a member of an organisation is not a right, its a privalege.

We are not regular case as the two resolutions of our admmision clearly state for additional obligations contrary to the UN Charter.

Until we release ourselfs from those resolutions such letter wont have any effect.

We are not asking anyone to decide on our matters but to act in accordance of our interests and execute duties of the second party.

Refer to my previous posts, I'm not going to keep repeating myself just because you have the memory of a gold fish. Or perhaps you are using Meto's tactic of just banging on about the same rubbish every time the page changes in the hope that noone will remember what was on the previous pages.

[Soldier of Macedon]

he hasn't made clear (Gruevski either), is WHY they are negotiating

This could be one reason why,


Quote:
Ivanov
All these meetings and visits had one and the same purpose, to represent our country in a decent manner and to advocate its strategic interests. The leading objective of my international activity primarily was to embody Macedonia as a peace-loving country contributing to the regional stability.

Bill, it is not indecent or non-peaceful of Macedonia to pull out of these negotiations in the interest of our national integrity and honour. What's the worst that could happen? The shame needs to end now.

[julie]

What rights does Ivanov have? can he declare the IA null and void? Can he tell Greece to find another bum buddy. Macedonia wont take it up the butt anymore?
Does he have the right to stop this 3 ring circus where Macedonia continues to be the monkey? Or is he another one of those fantastic politicians that are oh so wonderful to hail the shiptari as their new masters
I dont understand the parliamentary system and would appreciate knowing whether and if he is just a puppet leader

[Makedonska_Kafana]

I dont understand the parliamentary system and would appreciate knowing whether and if he is just a puppet leader

All Organized Crime, Interpol, CIA & Money

[julie]

Cheers MK, got the picture.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Cheers MK, got the picture.

Kukla, all the same this is why it's up to us to stop them dead in their tracks.

[julie]

Kukla, all the same this is why it's up to us to stop them dead in their tracks.

this is where they belong, all traitors to the Macedonian cause bro

[Bill77]

Bill, it is not indecent or non-peaceful of Macedonia to pull out of these negotiations in the interest of our national integrity and honour. What's the worst that could happen? The shame needs to end now.

The worst that can happen is the opposition party (SDSM) come into power then god help us. Countries out side our borders can do jack shit. The Ethnic Albanians can do jack shit. Its the Macedonians in Macedonia that i am worried about. How would they react? will these Serbian flag waving fools use this withdrawal and twist it abuse it to their favour, and will the strong percentage, "that are ignorant" fall for it?

SOM, looking at your latest thread, we have Patriots, Traitors, enemies, ignorant. Now if Ivanov or Gruevski firstly has the power to walk away and they do, would you agree we would have Patriots in one corner, and the rest (Traitors, enemies, ignorant) in the other corner. Now would you think the rest, would outnumber the Patriots? If so, then where do we go from there.

[indigen]

The worst that can happen is the opposition party (SDSM) come into power then god help us. Countries out side our borders can do jack shit. The Ethnic Albanians can do jack shit. Its the Macedonians in Macedonia that i am worried about. How would they react? will these Serbian flag waving fools use this withdrawal and twist it abuse it to their favour, and will the strong percentage, "that are ignorant" fall for it?

SOM, looking at your latest thread, we have Patriots, Traitors, enemies, ignorant. Now if Ivanov or Gruevski firstly has the power to walk away and they do, would you agree we would have Patriots in one corner, and the rest (Traitors, enemies, ignorant) in the other corner. Now would you think the rest, would outnumber the Patriots? If so, then where do we go from there.

No offence Bill but you should stop your political BOUNCING and take a position one way or the other because you are making me dizzy with all your flip-flops! How could you blame Macedonian in Macedonia when your position is heavily flawed?

Did you not support the campaign below and even donate money to it? What were you supporting then and why have you stopped supporting it now?

Macedonians Demand End to Name Negotiations
Macedonian Human Rights Movement International
August 26, 2010
MHRMI and AMHRC Press Release

Toronto, Canada and Melbourne, Australia – Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, and throughout the world, are showing overwhelming support for the "Our Name is Macedonia" ad campaign, which demands that Macedonia end all negotiations with Greece over its name.

Ads are appearing in print and online editions of major newspapers, television commercials are airing, billboards in the centre of Skopje are going up, and hundreds of thousands of flyers are being distributed throughout the country.

MHRMI and AMHRC will also hold its third press conference announcing another update to the campaign.

However, some Macedonian media outlets have decided to ignore the message of the ad campaign and publish articles attacking the Macedonian diaspora for initiating it, and even criticizing the child that appears in the ad in a desperate attempt to detract from the message. They have decided to continue their own campaign of scare-mongering, trying to convince the Macedonian public that a name change is necessary in order to enter NATO and the EU.

This ad campaign is not about embracing or rejecting NATO and EU membership. It is about finally putting an end to the nonsensical "name negotiations".

The focus never should have been on Macedonia to compromise its own name and identity. The focus should be on NATO, the EU, and its member-states upholding their principles, supporting and recognizing Macedonia. NATO and the EU should reprimand Greece for handcuffing them based on its xenophobic policies.

Countries that have recognized Macedonia must publicly support it and not call for "compromise".

The first UN mediator for the name dispute, Robin O'Neil, said that "Macedonia must not and will not change its name in order to appease Greece. If Macedonia succumbs to pressures and changes its name, such events will only give more firepower to Greece until it reaches its final goal - Macedonia to vanish from the map."

Even changing the name bilaterally would change it permanently everywhere. Countries that have recognized Macedonia have said "If a bilateral solution is reached, we will abide by that decision and use the new name for Macedonia".


By continuing the negotiations, we are telling the world "we will change our name". We have the power to end this. 127 countries have recognized Macedonia, including 4/5 United Nations Security Council members. Stop negotiating our own name.

MHRMI and AMHRC call on Macedonians, in the Republic of Macedonia and abroad, to join our call for Macedonia to immediately cease name negotiations and demand immediate international recognition.

To sign on or see the ad campaign, please visit:

Our Name is Macedonia

https://www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia

English ad

https://www.mhrmi.org/images/campaign.pdf

Macedonian ad

https://www.mhrmi.org/images/campaign_m.pdf

To put a banner on your website, please visit:

https://www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia/web

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/179484