Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia needs to make its own threatening statements now.

Greece is 'threatening' to Veto Macedonia's EU bid. We all know very well that Greece WILL use that veto, without doubt.

Macedonia needs to make a counter-threat, along the lines of 'If Greece does Veto and ONCE AGAIN breaches the terms of the Interim Agreement, proving it is unable to abide by the Interim Accord, then said breached accord is useless and serves no purpose, and thus Macedonia will have no choice but to end negotiations based on the accord and proceed with a UN Declaration and subsequent UN vote, based on its Right to self-determination'.

That way, it's clear:
If they do this, we do that.
If they don't, then we wont. (well... yet, anyway).

Macedonia just needs to keep making that statement, day-in, day-out, the way the Greeks were repeating 'veto, veto, veto' in the days and weeks leading up to the NATO summit. It gives everyone (else in the world) enough time to re-adjust positions and be prepared for the Greek veto and Macedonia's consequential withdrawal from the Interim Agreement... if you don't lay the groundwork for the withdrawal of the Interim Accord, then you can't just do it in a big surprise and catch the big players off guard. It means with this counter-threat, which we repeat, repeat and repeat, and take serious, it will mean all the pressure goes on Greece to step down from their position of Veto and allow us into the EU with the interim name, or else create a permanent stagnation against EU and NATO interests.

Well said Rogi.

[Traveller]

NATO and EU tell you to change your name, not Greece. They have adopted Greece's positions. Except some old communist countries your nationalistic goverment is considered a relic from 19th century.

[Traveller]

I'm more concerned about what effect a Greek veto will have on the Macedonian government.

I would feel better if I thought the government was very clear in its principals, regarding its soveriegnty, its rights and nationality...and so on and so forth.

I think Crvenko has the government rattled a bit. I think he is portraying himself as the voice of the E.U, and is undermining the government at every turn.

What can Macedonia do?

My suggestion to Gruevski would be to make some very clear statements about Greece's intentions, which need to be said. Greece's intentions have been implied, or suggested, but never made openly public in the E.U.

The Macedonians could say "Greece wants the native Macedonians wiped out" ...
If the Macedonians do nothing, Greece couldn't be more provoked than it is now, so I say spill the beans ... the Macedonians should be defending their rights, history, identity ... and be damned what the fkn Greeks do.

These guys vote for Karamanlis in a vast majority. Thosewho were forced to leave were expelled for being communists, not because of their race. The others stayed because they were loyal to democracy (and the right party).

[El Bre]

These guys vote for Karamanlis in a vast majority. Those who were forced to leave were expelled for being communists, not because of their race. The others stayed because they were loyal to democracy (and the right party).

What a load of bovine excrement. You still think these people were fighting for communism? My grandfather came from a what at the time would have been considered a wealthy family, do you think it was in his interests to fight for communism? The political angle is an excuse for guys like you who don't want to face the reality of the situation. After the Asia Minor fiasco and the Metaxas years, these people were fighting for their right to exist.

Forget about your ND bullshit and trying to relate it to the
Maccedonian people. Modern people vote with their wallets, so your mixing peas and potatos.

@Mods. I am offended by this individuals constant and purposeful misrepresentation of events as it pertains to the reasons Macedonians fought and died.

[Traveller]

What a load of bovine excrement. You still think these people were fighting for communism? My grandfather came from a what at the time would have been considered a wealthy family, do you think it was in his interests to fight for communism? The political angle is an excuse for guys like you who don't want to face the reality of the situation. After the Asia Minor fiasco and the Metaxas years, these people were fighting for their right to exist.

Forget about your ND bullshit and trying to relate it to the
Maccedonian people. Modern people vote with their wallets, so your mixing peas and potatos.

@Mods. I am offended by this individuals constant and purposeful misrepresentation of events as it pertains to the reasons Macedonians fought and died.

And i am offended because you are an agitator who is lying about many things. I insist. ALL THE ETHNIC MACEDONIANS who left were communists. Why didnt the others leave? Why did they leave side by side with the Greek communists?Why do the remained vote for Karamanlis and the right party for decades now?
as for th highlighted section details please. i dont buy it.

[Traveller]

I hope Greece vetoes and does it defiantly.
The more of a fuss they raise about it, the more interest the issue will generate... the more people will be interested in the situation. The absurdity of their arguments will then come to the fore.

You were saying the same thing before NATO summit and then you were crying like babies. Remember in the Maknews forum?

[Risto the Great]

Ummm, I never cried about it.
I expected it because I know who we are dealing with.
What I expect now is that the World will tire of the Greek vindictiveness and will no longer subsidise them at Macedonia's expense.

Hey, if I put some money in a Greek bank, will the Germans guarantee my money?

[Venom]

Yesterday, Schaeffer (=NATO) told you "it is hard for you , but if you want to join NATO and EU you have to change the name". It is so simple. Do you want to join NATO or EU? If you say yes , you know what to do. If you say no under this "blackmail" poverty and civil unrest will dismantle your country. This is Greece's AND NATO plus EU view.

How exactly will civil unrest and poverty dismantle our country big fellow? Nothing of the sort has happened in the last 17 years and we were not part of the EU or NATO. So why should it happen now?

If you even mention 2001, I will formally proclaim my want to punch you square in the face.

The 'view' you are talking about is solely greece's view, but I very much agree with Risto in saying that there will come a time in the near future when many, many people will tire of greece's pathetic little view.

Please sir, think with your head and think logically instead of posting bullshit you want to happen.

[El Bre]

you are an agitator

You're on a Macedonian website professing to tell people about their own history and I'm the agitator?

who is lying about many things

What have I lied about exactly?

ALL THE ETHNIC MACEDONIANS who left were communists.

Not true. Many people left because they saw which way the wind was blowing and their future wasn't going to be in Greece. People emmigrate for many reasons not only because they are communist bogeymen.

Why didnt the others leave?

Just as there are many reasons people emmigrate there are many reasons why people stay behind, fear of the unknown is one.

Where do you get the idea that everyone is politically minded anyway? After the civil war alot of people just wanted to be left alone to live in peace, they'd had enough upheaval in their lives. Is that so hard to understand?

Why did they leave side by side with the Greek communists?

Who were they going to leave with? Mussolini?

Why do the remained vote for Karamanlis and the right party for decades now?

The same reason I vote for a 'right party'. I vote with my wallet.

as for th highlighted section details please. i dont buy it.

Well how condescending is that?
What don't you 'buy' exactly?
What kind of details do you want? bank statements?

My greatgrandfather spent the first 30 years of the 20th century travelling back and forth between Macedonia and the United States. He did very well by his family. This is not an uncommon story.

I'm sorry if my words don't jive with your notion of reality, but this is my Macedonian truth.

[Risto the Great]

I'm sorry if my words don't jive with your notion of reality, but this is my Macedonian truth.

Correction:

I'm sorry if my words don't jive with your notion of reality, but this is THE Macedonian truth.

[Traveller]

Ummm, I never cried about it.
I expected it because I know who we are dealing with.
What I expect now is that the World will tire of the Greek vindictiveness and will no longer subsidise them at Macedonia's expense.

Hey, if I put some money in a Greek bank, will the Germans guarantee my money?

Greek goverment guarantees 100,000 euros. If you are richer you should go to Ireland's banks. They guarantee all your money.

[Traveller]

How exactly will civil unrest and poverty dismantle our country big fellow? Nothing of the sort has happened in the last 17 years and we were not part of the EU or NATO. So why should it happen now?

If you even mention 2001, I will formally proclaim my want to punch you square in the face.

The 'view' you are talking about is solely greece's view, but I very much agree with Risto in saying that there will come a time in the near future when many, many people will tire of greece's pathetic little view.

Please sir, think with your head and think logically instead of posting bullshit you want to happen.

It wont happen. When the name problem is solved Greece will be your stepfather in EU.

[Pelister]

Macedonia needs to make its own threatening statements now.

Greece is 'threatening' to Veto Macedonia's EU bid. We all know very well that Greece WILL use that veto, without doubt.

Macedonia needs to make a counter-threat, along the lines of 'If Greece does Veto and ONCE AGAIN breaches the terms of the Interim Agreement, proving it is unable to abide by the Interim Accord, then said breached accord is useless and serves no purpose, and thus Macedonia will have no choice but to end negotiations based on the accord and proceed with a UN Declaration and subsequent UN vote, based on its Right to self-determination'.

That way, it's clear:
If they do this, we do that.
If they don't, then we wont. (well... yet, anyway).

Macedonia just needs to keep making that statement, day-in, day-out, the way the Greeks were repeating 'veto, veto, veto' in the days and weeks leading up to the NATO summit. It gives everyone (else in the world) enough time to re-adjust positions and be prepared for the Greek veto and Macedonia's consequential withdrawal from the Interim Agreement... if you don't lay the groundwork for the withdrawal of the Interim Accord, then you can't just do it in a big surprise and catch the big players off guard. It means with this counter-threat, which we repeat, repeat and repeat, and take serious, it will mean all the pressure goes on Greece to step down from their position of Veto and allow us into the EU with the interim name, or else create a permanent stagnation against EU and NATO interests.

That is exactly what the Macedonian government needs to say and needs to do.

It shouldn't let Greece get away with breaching the interim accord a second time.

[Pelister]

It wont happen. When the name problem is solved Greece will be your stepfather in EU.

Oh, please.

That's like the Torturer saying to the victim, submit now, and I will look after you !?

That's pure poison coming from your mouth.

[Risto the Great]

Greek goverment guarantees 100,000 euros. If you are richer you should go to Ireland's banks. They guarantee all your money.

Yeah, the EU is not happy with Ireland.
But Ireland is doing very well economically.
Unlike Greece which has been a huge financial drain on the EU. The excuses are getting thinner and thinner.