Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[protivpropaganda]

Soldier of Macedon,
I had the decency to identify, accept and then correct a problem post only to find that what I have written with honest and benevolent intent is being misquoted, twisted and spun to serve the interests of a small group of people on this forum.
Oh the drama of it all, right?

What sort of man that deems himself as reasonable intentionally and malevolently attacks through misquoting and twisting the words of someone who has accepted having made an error and corrected it.
Such a man isn't reasonable. Such a man is driven by emotions rather then by reason.
What sort of man has hateful emotions toward someone that hasn't wronged him?
This is drama too, right?

I have identified the group with which you claim to "share views" with. This group, as any other, has its leader, master if you will, and it has the followers. After I have identified the leader of a group I ignore the followers. Anything I have to say will be said to the leader of the group.

I will reply to your disrespectful emotional accusations for the sole reason as to give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe, just maybe, your opinions have been swayed (manipulated) by someone you trust but shouldn't.

Indigen and those 'who share his views', is that it? I share most of his views. I can assure you that I work for the interests of the Macedonian Cause and not for profit, out of ignorance or malice. So what now?

You are misquoting what I wrote and spinning the meaning of it. If you were a reasonable man then you should have quoted this paragraph where I explain the error which created a misunderstanding.

Also, while rereading I got the notion that you guys aren't in good terms with a Macedonian Diaspora organisation called UMD and that the "their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora" actually refers to them. While I was disagreeing about what I thought was said about Macedonian Diaspora in general I was actually disagreeing with Indigen about his conclusion about the activity of the organisation UMD and when I acknowledged the existence of individuals who work for the interests of others what I was actuallyrefering to was him and others who share his views. LOL LOL LOL

I did laugh at myself when I realised my error.

Who is 'your' Diaspora and how do they differ from mine? Are you not Macedonian, like I am?

I am a Macedonian but I am nothing like you or should I say as you show yourself to be.

BTW this also is a misquote with a spin of what I wrote since the question of who is my Diaspora has been covered.
You are my Diaspora whether you like it or not.

I disagreed firmly since I see my Macedonian Diaspora as the only trully free Macedonians alive today...

If your intentions were honest then you should have quoted this sentence or not have asked such a question at all.

What, you mean you didn't know? Now who's behaving like a 4 year old.....

What the...? Stop acting like an infant.
Do you honestly believe that Diaspora organisations are known let alone famous or have any relevance in Macedonia? Maybe with some individual members of our political parties, yes.
Some of us are aware of their existence but do not trouble ourselves with them since they seem and come on as very conceeded knowitalls just because they have the money. This is not my opinion, by the way, although confirmation for this widely accepted opinion is slowly creeping in on me.
Also the factual situation which exists where Macedonian patriots and Macedonian Diaspora patriots are not unified in their activities has given me cause to investigate this matter to its furthest extent, identify the causes and maybe even figure out ways to remedy the situation.

Good to know, the rest of us don't work, aren't busy, don't have personal lives, etc, we just wait here all day to be graced by busy types like yourself so they can tell us 'how it is' in Macedonia.

Since you claim that you all are busy people with personal lives then why do you spend so much time and energy on fruitless quarrels trying to outdo each other? Do you not spend quality time with your children?

Your friends address you as PP? How would that sound when said, "pee-pee"? Look, I won't be preventing anybody from referring to you as PP, it means absolutely nothing of insult. Were someone to write "prolivpropaganda" or similar, then let me know, otherwise, take your own advice and stop behaving like a 4 year old.

I do not have friends in the Diaspora although I hope to make them. So I rarely communicate on the net in the latin alphabet. All my written communication is done through the Cyrrilic azbuka and the Macedonian language. If you still remember the azbuka then you would know how "ПП" is pronounced and as you so elegantly proved it that by abbreviating my name to the latin alphabet letters "PP" does create an insult.
As an admin when spotting such attempts at insulting you should act accordingly.

[julie]

Also the factual situation which exists where Macedonian patriots and Macedonian Diaspora patriots are not unified in their activities has given me cause to investigate this matter to its furthest extent, identify the causes and maybe even figure out ways to remedy the situation.

You should be concentrating on unity in the activities in the Republic , and remedy the servitude mindset there, and look at overthrowing the IA, the diaspora cannot do this for you, look at my signature block.
Also. you came onto this forum, being derogatory to the diaspora.
Reading between the lines, you are looking at unifying the diaspora, and leading them . There is an organisation that is a puppet diaspora called UMD, that may like your puppet ideology, they work backwards from the corrupt governments wishes, and honour US annihilation and extermination policies of Macedonia with hero awards to US Washington based fascists hellbent on wiping us off the earth - just look at wikileaks CIA documents saying all Macedonians are a cancer and Macedonia needs to be exterminated. Am sure you would do very well leading the UMD
I suggest you stop knocking the diaspora, I don't understand your fight here, we are not the people that need a change in slave mentality mindset, look within the country you live in, and do something about it there

[fyrOM]

OM, even with paragraphs, I find it difficult to understand what you write. I keep thinking I am tired, but I always seem to be tired when I read your posts.

RTG look at what the Greeks do.

They recognise that perceptions can lead to real world action…I wont elaborate see previous posts.

The need to manage perceptions leads to the need for a propaganda war.

To effectively wage a propaganda war…kind of like other wars really…you need to use any and all if need be resources available to you.
Eg you might have a good idea but don’t have the means to call media attention but an organisation on your side does. You ca alert them of the situation and pass on the idea then they can act on it a get it out there in the public mind.

Big and small contribute to the propaganda war in ever instance the can…everywhere you look you will see a Greek saying Macedonia is Greek

They don’t rely solely on the knock out punch we have Natural Rights…in the court of public opinion the reply is you have a right to speak and thus you have a right to say you are Macedonian but it doesn’t mean it makes it so.

You are right in that the final solution is I am allowed to call myself whatever I want regardless if you believe me or not but is it not better to have public support than just to bunker down.

Natural Rights are a double edge sword.
Why should Macedonians have anymore Natural Rights than the Albanians in RoM…are not they Natural Persons.

What happens if they agitate the situation to make life difficult for the Macedonians…do you tolerate them for ever.

What if at some future time they cry foul…the Macedonians are suppressing us we want our rights to freedom and self determination.

Do you understand that situations exist where competing rights are put into question…one has rights and the other has rights but one has more rights and hence the rights of one should prevail. Court cases are run on this principle.

Can you now see that the very rights you hold up as the panacea to all that is wrong in the Framework and Interim agreement can work against the Macedonians.

Why…the devil is in the detail and gets labelled what.

That’s why there is more to look at than just We have Rights…2001 is a perfect example of how those rights can be abused and work against the Macedonians.

Can this happen again or was 2001 an aberration…I put it to you it is the former so where does Just waving the Natural Rights banner get us.

This is why I am saying Yes you are right but we need more.

A few heroes doing it on their own is difficult and like the Greeks all Macedonians need to participate in the propaganda war.

[Risto the Great]

Natural Rights are a double edge sword.
Why should Macedonians have anymore Natural Rights than the Albanians in RoM…are not they Natural Persons.

If we regard Macedonia as the cultural homeland of the Macedonian people, Macedonian language and Macedonian identity, then the competition for Natural Rights is firmly stacked in favour of Macedonians. I think most people accept this.

[Vangelovski]

Actually, by purposely avoiding to employ the given solutions to terminate this dispute with a victory is equal to a betrayal of our national interest.


What is the better than deciding your own affairs with setting out the best legal decissions for a final substantive victory in this issue?

The course of action that you propose does not guarantee "victory" and it does undermine our national sovereignty. Accepting the jurisdiction of a court which is UNACCOUNTABLE to the Macedonian people, the very people it presumes to make judgements on, is UNACCEPTABLE, in my view. Further, accepting the jurisdiction of an unaccountable court opens the possibility of a negative decision.

It is far more important that the Macedonian people FREELY determine their own affairs, and by doing so, can easily declare the IA 'null and void'. Why on earth would you pursue a course of action that:

a) undermines your national sovereignty;
b) is not guaranteed to achieve the desired result;
c) is open to foreign manipulation; and
d) could take years??

Instead the Macedonian people (represented by their government) can declare it 'null and void' today and put an end to the Interim Accord now.

The answer is that YOU either do not understand the fundamental principles surrounding national sovereignty or do not believe in MACEDONIAN sovereignty.

[Vangelovski]

There are competing rights, i.e., national self-determination versus self-defence. This has been discussed previously. If claims to competing rights cannot be resolved peacefully, then the last resort is violence.

OziMak,

Maybe you missed this or just purposely ignored it.

[fyrOM]

I agree RTG but there is the point of the propaganda…are you The Macedonians or an Australian like you and I nth generations 2.5 thousand years later with a drop of aboriginal blood somewhere. The devil is in the abuse of the labelling and the eu and usa have already demonstrated their preponderance to abuse.

There is a need to assert our Macedonian identity on every little issue and not let some things slide. The Greeks never let up even when their argument is weak eg the wine issue. We have no room for complacency and can ill afford to be smug in our thought of Natural Rights trump card.

[Bratot]

The course of action that you propose does not guarantee "victory" and it does undermine our national sovereignty. Accepting the jurisdiction of a court which is UNACCOUNTABLE to the Macedonian people, the very people it presumes to make judgements on, is UNACCEPTABLE, in my view. Further, accepting the jurisdiction of an unaccountable court opens the possibility of a negative decision.

It is far more important that the Macedonian people FREELY determine their own affairs, and by doing so, can easily declare the IA 'null and void'. Why on earth would you pursue a course of action that:

a) undermines your national sovereignty;
b) is not guaranteed to achieve the desired result;
c) is open to foreign manipulation; and
d) could take years??

Instead the Macedonian people can declare it 'null and void' today and put an end to the Interim Accord now.

The answer is that YOU either do not understand the fundamental principles surrounding national sovereignty or do not believe in MACEDONIAN sovereignty.

This is the best potential solution that eventually lead to a final victory, having on mind the strict legal advatage of our arguments and the history of related subjects by the Court.

And what is more important you purposely avoided to explain in several occassions how will you employ the sovereingty for the rights of our minorities, our diaspora, being seriously violated in the states of their residence?

How will you ensure fair census for our minorities in foreign countries?

The international right is made to serve the smaller countries, to protect their implicit sovereign right from the argument of power.

[Risto the Great]

There is a need to assert our Macedonian identity on every little issue and not let some things slide. The Greeks never let up even when their argument is weak eg the wine issue. We have no room for complacency and can ill afford to be smug in our thought of Natural Rights trump card.

Absolutely agree OM. However, if we assume our Natural Rights as being ... well .... Natural Rights, then this empowers us to DEMAND what is only fair. Unfortunately, sitting in a courtroom trying to determine or destroy what our natural rights are is only demeaning and further diluting our rights.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Whilst the legal consequences of a withdrawal from the Interim are such that the previous consequences (lost flag, minorities rights, temporary name) remain in force.

Let us look at the actual consequences.

If Macedonia was to pull out of the negotiations tomorrow, and reinstate the old flag, what would actually happen? The international community will cease interacting with us? Greece will invade Macedonia? How can the current circumstances remain in force if we pull out altogether and make our own path for the future, as opposed to the one the IC is creating for us?

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia as a cultural homeland of the Macedonian language and Macedonian identity.

Macedonia as a cultural homeland of the Macedonian People, Macedonian language and Macedonian identity.

Vote 1 for Risto

[Risto the Great]

Sadly, identifying the Macedonian people is typically shunned and avoided at all cost in Macedonia.

[Pelister]

How can a name change not affect our identity, and our history and our culture? The idea that a name change is possible without it affecting our identity, is a lie. How can these politicians split hairs when it comes to name/identity/history? If anyone bothered to look at the Terms and Conditions that the Greeks, and the E.U have put us to, it is clear what they are negotiating. The Macedonians have been deceived by the Greeks about the legal aspects of this dispute - because its someone elses mistake and problem, and the Macedonian leaders have no idea what their rights are. What ever happened to having our name overturned legally at the U.N? The most sensible and practical alternative to everything going on right now. They are either extremely incompetent, or straight out traitors.

[Vangelovski]

This is the best potential solution that eventually lead to a final victory, having on mind the strict legal advatage of our arguments and the history of related subjects by the Court.

Bratot, you did not address the points I raised about your "strategy". Simply claiming it is the "best potential solution" does not make it so, especially when a number of blatantly obvious issues (pointed out above in a) to d)) have not been addressed.

Further, you are still avoiding the real issue, which is whether you support Macedonian sovereignty, and if so, why appeal to unaccountable international courts?

And what is more important you purposely avoided to explain in several occassions how will you employ the sovereingty for the rights of our minorities, our diaspora, being seriously violated in the states of their residence?

How will you ensure fair census for our minorities in foreign countries?

The international right is made to serve the smaller countries, to protect their implicit sovereign right from the argument of power.

You may or may not have noticed, but states such as Greece and Bulgaria generally IGNORE rulings made by international courts. Attempts to have the rights of Macedonian minorities protected through international law have FAILED.

But you seem to be suggesting that their rights can somehow be protected if Macedonia accepts the jurisdiction of an international court to decide on issues that are a matter for the Macedonian people ONLY??

[Pelister]

Do you think of ceasing the negotiations as a means, or ceasing of the negotiations as a goal?

We have a Metoist in our midst. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, and no understanding of the political damage these negotiations are doing to us. The only people that have anything to gain by making a case that the negotiations are 'necessary' (for whatever vague reason), are you enemies.