Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Vangelovski]

To be sovereign means to be the supreme authority within a particular jurisdiction, with no higher human power. What does this mean? This means that, for example, the Macedonian people, as a body of citizens, are the HIGHEST POWER within the Macedonian state. They have the FINAL say on any matter within and with regard to themselves and the Macedonian state. There is NO higher authority (international or domestic) that can overrule them (natural law excepted).

As a sovereign body of citizens, they can choose to declare the Interim Accord ‘null and void’ at any time. This means that the Interim Accord would have no effect as if it NEVER EXISTED.

This is national self-determination in action.

Claiming that we need to appeal to another human power or authority is basically saying that the Macedonian people SHOULD NOT determine their own affairs and exercise their own national sovereignty. It also sounds a bit like the deluded cry for outside help that Delcev correctly warned about.

[indigen]

Again, get off the rakija.

Buktop II has just been reincarnated, don't you think?

[Vangelovski]

Buktop II has just been reincarnated, don't you think?

I think so. There is very little difference between what Bratot is advocating now and what Buktop did previously.

[fyrOM]

I'm glad you accept the existance of natural law.

Law…Natural or not…the devils in the detail.

To borrow a quote

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
-- Thomas Jefferson

that’s why I have been saying the government and the people…including diaspora…needs to act on each and every instance where ones freedom is put into question.

Like a negligent gardener if the weeds are left today…ahh it doesn’t mater…they will expand until there is nothing left of the flowers. Our government is behaving like a negligent gardener.

A lot of people in the world know the western version of history and immediately identify Macedonians and Macedonia with Greece. Where does that leave us…being seen as new arrival squatters trying to claim our corner of the property and pretending to be Macedonians to excuse our presence.

If we are seen as the squatters what can be said of the Albanians…there are Albanians in their home in Albania and Albanians as squatters in Macedonia.

Why then should one lot of squatters have anymore right to the patch of land than the other lot of squatters hence even the Albanians are putting out signals in unison with our other neighbours that they don’t want RoM and her citizens…ie including them…to be disadvantaged by not being in the EU because the other squatters romanticised delusions of some connection to the true…read ancient…Macedonians. Hurry up and give up you delusions and let us join the EU or we will have to exercise our Natural Rights to Self Determination and brake off from you. A convenient set of labels for the EU or USA to use to excuse future actions. Perceptions are not just thoughts and ideas. Believe it there are real physical dangers in perceptions hence the need to manage the perceptions people have of you.

I had hoped that Macedonian individuals and organisations could work together to counter any and every bit of misinformation or propaganda against Macedonia. Eg I did my 2 cents worth in the comments of today’s Herald Sun article. I had hoped a while back the UMD would have used their media pull to counter that stupid historian professor from the UK…of Bulgarian decent…claiming in his book that Macedonians were really Bulgarians and the AMHRC MHRMI tackling issues like the Macedonians in Albania being threatened for simply wanting to learn their own language and that Macedonians and Macedonian organisations in EU countries could attack radio talkback and newspapers as things come up. Good on those who have done there bit and what a disappointment the rest have been. The UMD is a gapping hole in this idea as their media and political connections are extremely valuable.

I had hopes to see members abandon negative preconception eg Egej vs. RoM Macedonians or RoM vs. diaspora or UMD vs. everyone for trying to highjack them as volunteer workers for the purpose would to have a unified multi continent anti propaganda unit ready for any misinformation the neighbours throw out.

[Risto the Great]

OM, even with paragraphs, I find it difficult to understand what you write. I keep thinking I am tired, but I always seem to be tired when I read your posts.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Those judgements refer to INDIVIDUALS and their PERSONAL names. Not their NATIONAL/ETHNIC identity or STATE names.

Vangelovski,

that was example of a judgment to show you that Article 8 includes the name and identity.

You on the other hand made another incredibly ignorant statement.

Obviously you need someone to explain you the basic things.
Since you are convinced that the ethnic identity i.e. the right for a group identification are separate subject and the right to name your own country is not a part of these rights.

P.S. It's time for another diversion huh? It's pretty obvious you and your clone are completely ignorant on these matters but fiercely argueing about.

Maybe it's time someone rise a question about your intentions to mislead our people on the crucial issues as this one.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

You are yet to explain how Article 8 has anything to do with ethnic/national identity or state names.

Where did I claim that national identity is sperate to that of the state name?

Are you now ignoring my response to your incoherent and contradictory "legal" arguments? Or are you going to finally admit that you do not believe the Macedonian people are sovereign?

As for my intention, I have made them very clear (including a summary version in my signature block) and I welcome scrutiny.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

You are yet to explain how Article 8 has anything to do with ethnic/national identity or state names.

Warsaw, 30 July 2010
Opinion-Nr.: PRIV– MOL/160/2010 (LH)

4.2 Ethnic identity as a protected characteristic of the right to respect for private life

12. It is by now established in the case-law of the ECtHR that ethnic identity is a detail pertaining to the individual’s identity which is protected by Article 8 ECHR.12
Under the principle of personal autonomy, which underlies the
guarantees provided by Art. 8 ECHR, protection is afforded to the personal sphere of each individual, including the right to establish details of their identity as human beings.13
Ethnic identity is protected because it constitutes an essential
aspect of a person’s private life and identity, along with other aspects such as name, gender, religion and sexual orientation.14

http://www.legislationline.org/documents/id/15942

Now, do I have to explain what the passport consist of and whether Article 8 is also aplicapable?

Where did I claim that national identity is sperate to that of the state name?

You claimed that individual identity is separate from ethnic/national identity, which you questioned above.

Are you now ignoring my response to your incoherent and contradictory "legal" arguments? Or are you going to finally admit that you do not believe the Macedonian people are sovereign?

I'm not sure if I should endure your idioticy anymore.

[fyrOM]

Those Natural laws and rights you and others hold so high and believe are Macedonia’s natural defence were the same laws used against Macedonia in 2001. Do you think that without countering negative perceptions of Macedonia those same laws cannot be used again against Macedonia.

[indigen]

Bratot, I am waiting for a proper answer to post #63 and please do not give us any BS explanations!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=83079&postcount=63

[Vangelovski]

Warsaw, 30 July 2010
Opinion-Nr.: PRIV– MOL/160/2010 (LH)

4.2 Ethnic identity as a protected characteristic of the right to respect for private life

12. It is by now established in the case-law of the ECtHR that ethnic identity is a detail pertaining to the individual’s identity which is protected by Article 8 ECHR.12
Under the principle of personal autonomy, which underlies the
guarantees provided by Art. 8 ECHR, protection is afforded to the personal sphere of each individual, including the right to establish details of their identity as human beings.13
Ethnic identity is protected because it constitutes an essential
aspect of a person’s private life and identity, along with other aspects such as name, gender, religion and sexual orientation.14

http://www.legislationline.org/documents/id/15942

I graciously concede this point. Article 8 can be interpreted to include ethnic/national identity after all.

HOWEVER, that was a side issue and has no bearing on the fact that you continue to deny Macedonian sovereignty and appeal to unaccountable courts as a final arbiter on issues that can only be decided on by the Macedonian people. By doing so, you are denying the Macedonian people their sovereignty and opening the possiblity of an unaccountable court making a negative determination, i.e., one in favour of Greece. You either do not understand sovereignty or just do not believe in it. Which one is it?

You claimed that individual identity is separate from ethnic/national identity, which you questioned above.

No, you originally said that I claimed national/ethnic identity was separate from the state name. Now you are claiming that I said individual identity is separate from national/ethnic identity.

What I actually said was that PERSONAL identity, i.e., name and surname, is separate to national/ethnic identity.

[Vangelovski]

Those Natural laws and rights you and others hold so high and believe are Macedonia’s natural defence were the same laws used against Macedonia in 2001. Do you think that without countering negative perceptions of Macedonia those same laws cannot be used again against Macedonia.

There are competing rights, i.e., national self-determination versus self-defence. This has been discussed previously. If claims to competing rights cannot be resolved peacefully, then the last resort is violence.

[Bratot]

Which one is it?

I think you need a good rest.

You intentionally tried to discredit me as well as your clone and yet I haven't seen your appologize.

There is no need for parroting the same shallow phrases in attemp to attach your fallacy to me.

[Vangelovski]

I think you need a good rest.

You intentionally tried to discredit me as well as your clone and yet I haven't seen your appologize.

There is no need for parroting the same shallow phrases in attemp to attach your fallacy to me.

Bratot,

You are still avoiding the substance of the issue - Macedonian sovereignty versus appeals to foreign/unaccountable courts to decide matters on our behalf. I can only repeat the question - Do you understand what sovereignty is and if so, do you believe that the Macedonian people should decide their own affairs?

[Bratot]

Bratot,

You are still avoiding the substance of the issue - Macedonian sovereignty versus appeals to foreign/unaccountable courts to decide matters on our behalf. I can only repeat the question - Do you understand what sovereignty is and if so, do you believe that the Macedonian people should decide their own affairs?

Actually, by purposely avoiding to employ the given solutions to terminate this dispute with a victory is equal to a betrayal of our national interest.


What is the better than deciding your own affairs with setting out the best legal decissions for a final substantive victory in this issue?