Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Jankovska]

Everyone has the right to freedom, we all know that but the cruel world we live in sees so many opressed people, too many. Why? because the world we live in is about power and not basic human rights. It's about being greedy, about selfish superpowers who for their own needs will do anything. I know who I am and no legal or illegal paper, actually no paper in the world can tell me differently, I am who I am and I will stay that way. I think I understand what Bratot is trying to say and I don't think in any way he is in denial about basic human rights, about what every individual on this planet has the right to. But in a way he is right, this is not about natural laws, or papers or anything, it is about power and we don't hold it. I IN NO WAY agree with any agreement that has to do with my name and my country because I signed nothing, I IN NO WAY agree with anything my country is being forced into but bigger powers at play can and will be forcing us. I have said it before and I will say it again, WE MUST pull out of any agreements and stupid things we are invloved that concern our name, us and our identity. But the people of Macedonia will suffer. However when you look at it now they are already suffering so they have nothing to lose.
In response to the original question Risto I bet you a large number of people in MKD don't have a clue what it is about. But than the people of MKD are fed so many lies it's never ending.

[fyrOM]

Firstly, don't pretend to understand international law. Secondly, no human law, international or domestic, can override natural law.

Really…in which world…heaven.

How can anyone prove you wrong when you don't accept the existence of some of our most fundamental laws, principles and concepts - the very issues at hand. You live in your own world.

Which world would that be…
the one where umpteen rigged election see the bad guy in power over the will of the people.

The one where you can just do drug running and human trafficking to get illegal hundreds of millions to buy guns.

Where you use those guns where you shoot innocent civilians and make them run for their lives from their homes and farms.

Where you can shoot at a SOVERIGN…hey there’s your favourite word…government and country and be called a freedom fighter and hero deserving of said government pension.

Where foreign nato troops come in to your SOVERIGN…hey there it is again…country to save the terrorists at the threat of blowing you up…ummmm isn’t that an invasion….

But we have NATURAL rights.

The eu and un…ie the invaders…even have it in their own laws.

Ever hear the words Koj te sisa
What was that..No…you should get out more especially in RoM…I know they are very good at saying it there and I wasn’t even into ANY political rubbish.
ps...just tell them you are from the diaspora

You really come off as one of these late night Evangelical preachers…in the world we should all love one another…turn the other cheek…ect…maybe they are great principles yet everything we see around us is the opposite. They say heaven must be wonderful.

Thank goodness that devilish rogue Goce Delcev who called many Macedonians as "slaves", "thick" and "weak" helped to do something about it.

And after his ill timed 2 week adventure we all know how wonderful it turned out fo him and us Macedonians since 1903...even in the Yugo days when we had our own Republic…yeah… my families predecessors enjoyed watching their farming fields and cattle sheep ect be confiscated at gun point by armed soldiers…and lets all remember to say dolgo da zivej druze Tito.

Wake up and smell the liberty.
Wake up and smell the coffee.

[Jankovska]

Jankovska,

Macedonians have had relatively easy lives in comparison to many others in Africa, the Middle East and Asia who faced much more difficult challenges but never lost their resolve for freedom. Hardship, while understandable, is not really an excuse.

Vangelovski you haven't lived in Macedonia therefor you wouldn't know. The people of Macedonia have never had it easy, YOU HAVE so stop bullshiting me coz I am getting tired.

[Jankovska]

Jankovska
The constant attack on our identity, religion, political structure from external sources (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians, UN, NATO, EU) continually causes identity problems and doesn't allow the ordinary Macedonian to be "oneself" or the country to be "itself", they have very cleverly implimented a plan of denationalisation and regular interference in our religious institutions, political institutions, educational insitiutions and social fabric, and continue to do so to this very day. We in the diaspora are very fortunate to be able to stand back and view this from a distance and from a perspective of certain objectivity. The most difficult part for me is watching this happen and not being able to do enough constructively to help the Macedonians in the Republic. Having said that the Macedonians in the Republic need to do more to help themselves, it seems like there is too much willingness to accept what is being handed out, there doesn't seem to be enough free will to "be oneself" or for the country to "be itself", your thoughts?

True but this problem is not from yesterday, it's centuries old. People have been under different occupation, people have been beaten, tortured, or just gone. This is something that has been happening for years and years, it won't change over night. And it is harder because of the situation the Macedonian person finds themselves on day to day basis. It's all well and nice for you and me to talk and I AGREE it's just I feel they have been beaten for too long to just raise their heads staight away, they are still being beaten and betrayed. It will happen, we just need to hope not to late.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Please do help me with my interpretation of Article 8, which is about the right to personal privacy. In fact, I'll post it here:

Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life

1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Bratot - at least do a basic google search on natural law and self-determination. For someone who wants the complexities of the 'nuts and bolts', you're having an impossible time with the most basic foundations.

OziMak,

Its good to see you're irrelevant rants again, though, I'm not sure if you're quoting RtG and myself or using our arguments against yourself???

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski you haven't lived in Macedonia therefor you wouldn't know. The people of Macedonia have never had it easy, YOU HAVE so stop bullshiting me coz I am getting tired.

How do you know whether I have lived in Macedonia or not, or how much time I have spent there or what I have done while I was there? What does that even have to do with the fact that Macedonians do have it RELATIVELY easier than other people across the world and that these others have not waivered in their resolve for freedom like the Macedonians have?

[Risto the Great]

And after his ill timed 2 week adventure we all know how wonderful it turned out fo him and us Macedonians since 1903...even in the Yugo days when we had our own Republic…yeah… my families predecessors enjoyed watching their farming fields and cattle sheep ect be confiscated at gun point by armed soldiers…and lets all remember to say dolgo da zivej druze Tito.

Wake up and smell the liberty.
Wake up and smell the coffee.

OM, I am not even sure where your frustrations lie. But would you agree that Goce remains a symbol of freedom and liberty for Macedonians? Would you agree that 2 weeks (or whatever minutes) of liberty left quite a mark on the Macedonian psyche?

Imagine someone who got 3 weeks (or more) of true liberty for Macedonians.

[makedonche]

True but this problem is not from yesterday, it's centuries old. People have been under different occupation, people have been beaten, tortured, or just gone. This is something that has been happening for years and years, it won't change over night. And it is harder because of the situation the Macedonian person finds themselves on day to day basis. It's all well and nice for you and me to talk and I AGREE it's just I feel they have been beaten for too long to just raise their heads staight away, they are still being beaten and betrayed. It will happen, we just need to hope not to late.

Jankovska
Yes, we tend to forget how long the Macedonians have been suppressed and underestimate how long it will take to overcome this indoctrinated subservience! You are right - it will happen, we will never give up hope, the fact that we are discussing it and acknowledge it shows that it's not too late, my wish is for it to happen faster!

[Bill77]

But would you agree that Goce remains a symbol of freedom and liberty for Macedonians?

Would you agree that 2 weeks (or whatever minutes) of liberty left quite a mark on the Macedonian psyche?

Answer to the first question "Yes"

Answer to the second question "Yes" again. It must have if we still talk about it today.

[Bratot]

Bratot,

Please do help me with my interpretation of Article 8, which is about the right to personal privacy. In fact, I'll post it here:

Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights includes the right to a name or identity as well.

[indigen]

"Clavus clavo eicitur" familiar?

There is also a saying in Macedonian: "so lisicata na lisechki nacin"

Si pretpostavuvam deka "Golemiot Lisec" - Gligorov mora da ti bil (i se ushte da ti e) potik za tvojot ideoloshki pogled vo vrska so makedonskata megjunarodna vazalska politika! Dali gresham nekade?

Can you tell us with a straight face how on the one hand YOU can support the "IA" (as you do currently) and at the same time say you support the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" (and even engage in promoting it)? What ethical principles are being upheld in such an OXYMORON stand? Would it be too far fetched to say that your support for the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" is analogous to that of the wolf in sheep's clothing lurking among the flock of sheep?

[indigen]

СВЕТСКИ МАКЕДОНСКИ КОНГРЕС

СТОП ЗА ДИСКРИМИНАЦИЈАТА ПРОТИВ МАКЕДОНИЈА И МАКЕДОНЦИТЕ!

10 декември 2010 година, Скопје, Македонија (СМК) - Светскиот Македонски Конгрес (СМК) на меѓународниот ден за човекови права го потсетува светот на геноцидот врз македонскиот народ, кој со влијанието на Атина, Брисел и Стразбур во меѓународната заедница добива универзална димензија!

СМК најостро го осудува анитмакедонизмот на Грција, грчкиот геноцид врз македонскиот народ и наци-фашистичкото барање на Атина за промена на државното име Македонија и изразува огорченост од солидарноста на бирократијата во Брисел и Стразбур со тоа.

Промената на државното име Македонија е злосторство против човештвото кое не застарува, а сервилноста на домашните квислинзи кон Атина е велепредавство за кое ќе суди судот на историјата и народот!

Името на македонскиот народ е нераскинливо поврзано со државното име Македонија и поради тоа не постои заемно прифатливо решение со Атина, освен државното име Македонија!


Правото на самоидентификување и самоопределување е неотуѓиво универзално право на македонскиот народ и затоа СМК апелира на итен и безусловен прекин на разговорите за разликата за државното име Македонија и продолжување на членството во Обединетите Нации и во сите меѓународни организации под единственото име Македонија, со можност за употреба на уставната референца „Република“, без латинична трнскрипција на македонскиот јазик туку на англиски јазик “The Republic of Macedonia” со меѓшународниот код МК односно МКД, независно од грчката окупација на Егејскиот дел од Македонија и геноцидот врз македонскиот народ кој Атина континуирано го врши од Балканските војни 1912-1913 година до денес.

Името на државата е идентитетот на нацијата! Истовремено, државното име е нерасикнливо со територијалниот интегритет на државата Македонија и единствено што Македонците во целиот свет ги обединува! Промената на државното име Македонија е вовед во нова војна на Балканот и дестабилизација на регионот! Државното име Македонија е единственото решение за траен мир на Балканот и на се уште отвореното македонско прашање!

СМК смета дека доколку Атина не ја признае Македонија, Грција ризикува да не остане цела! Но, и покрај се, Македонците се за македонско-грчко помирување и Договор за траен мир и добрососедство меѓу Македонија и Грција!

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=133356236688782&topic=382

For those that like to dismiss our views as that of disconnected from "reality" Diaspora Macedonians, Todor Petrov lives in Macedonia!

[Bratot]

Si pretpostavuvam deka "Golemiot Lisec" - Gligorov mora da ti bil (i se ushte da ti e) potik za tvojot ideoloshki pogled vo vrska so makedonskata megjunarodna vazalska politika! Dali gresham nekade?

Can you tell us with a straight face how on the one hand YOU can support the "IA" (as you do currently) and at the same time say you support the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" (and even engage in promoting it)? What ethical principles are being upheld in such an OXYMORON stand? Would it be too far fetched to say that your support for the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" is analogous to that of the wolf in sheep's clothing lurking among the flock of sheep?

There was another saying in Macedonian for the likes of you: "Thick as a brick"

But wasn't you saying that declaring the Interim Agrement null and void will cease the negotiations? ( post 158)

Thus all this time you adhered to the view that we must declare the IA null and void in order to cease the negotiation which is plain OXYMORON solution, while parading to be a big supported to end the name negotiations.

Ceasing the IA doesn't stop the negotiations.

Another question, are you able to provide credibile source who can vouch that our withdrawing from the IA is nullifying the consequences that came of it i.e. to change the national insignia, the provisional reference and our minorities?

[Risto the Great]

My intention is to discuss the topic. I'm not sure about yours.

My "story" gave precise details of the "LAW" as it stood in Macedonia over 100 years ago in the Ottoman empire. Those "laws" may look absolutely stupid to us nowadays, but they were indeed the law that the Christian Macedonians followed until some decided they were ridiculous.

We have other "LAWS" today, some have decided they are ridiculous.

[Soldier of Macedon]

........acknowledge the existence of individuals who work for the interests of others out of profit, ignorance and\or malice.

Indigen and those 'who share his views', is that it? I share most of his views. I can assure you that I work for the interests of the Macedonian Cause and not for profit, out of ignorance or malice. So what now?

I still firmly hold to what I said that my Diaspora isn't a puppet Diaspora and stop acting like a 4 year old pretending you do not know what it means.

Who is 'your' Diaspora and how do they differ from mine? Are you not Macedonian, like I am?

......I did find out why it needed to be clarified.....

Oh, I see, well then perhaps you could clinically deliver your dribble in future if you don't want to be questioned on your statements.

Also, while rereading I got the notion that you guys aren't in good terms with a Macedonian Diaspora organisation called UMD and that the "their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora" actually refers to them.

What, you mean you didn't know? Now who's behaving like a 4 year old.....

......this is the first forum that is comprised only of the Diaspora I have visited.

Wrong, again. This forum is not comprised "only" of Macedonians from the Diaspora, there are Macedonian from Macedonia here also, in addition to a number of non-Macedonians from various countries.

I can also add another thing beneficial to my case and that is I am a busy man.....

Good to know, the rest of us don't work, aren't busy, don't have personal lives, etc, we just wait here all day to be graced by busy types like yourself so they can tell us 'how it is' in Macedonia.

In my experience only my friends address me as PP.

Your friends address you as PP? How would that sound when said, "pee-pee"? Look, I won't be preventing anybody from referring to you as PP, it means absolutely nothing of insult. Were someone to write "prolivpropaganda" or similar, then let me know, otherwise, take your own advice and stop behaving like a 4 year old.