Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Risto the Great]

In order to reject oppression, one must be aware that they are being oppressed and then realise that they do not need to be oppressed. One needs to understand liberty and crave after it. Judging from their views and actions, the majority of Macedonians worldwide do not undertand liberty, let alone crave it.

I had been raised in a (Macedonian) politically active household for much of my life. The notions of liberty, oppression, desire for change etc. were woven into our daily familial patterns. I am quite sure many Macedonians in the Diaspora have similar recollections of their childhood and teen years. This desire or craving for liberty is still very strong in the Diaspora in my opinion.

[Bratot]

I think this says it all. Bratot, you either don't understand what you're arguing about or you have some other motives.

Negotiating our identity is a violation of our natural rights. Ending this violation is an end in itself. You seem to think this is some sort of "game" where the negotiations are a "tactic" to achieve some "greater end". National self-determination is the Macedonian cause. The FREEDOM of the Macedonian people to FREELY make their own decisions is the Macedonian cause. The negotiations are in direct contradiction to this cause - ending them is not a "means", its an act of exercising our FREEDOM.

I think you don't understand anything of what you suggest nor aware of the point of my question.

The freedom is not self sustainable cathegory and no one is going to handout your right for self-determination if you aren't going to achieve it by yourself.

Again, my question, if you are not going to answer, don't reply me and allow the discussion to run.

[Risto the Great]

Do you think of ceasing the negotiations as a means, or ceasing of the negotiations as a goal?

Definitely not a goal in the big picture. The negotiations on identity are merely an impediment that needs to be swept aside so that more important things can be tended to.

But we are talking about the Interim Agreement on this thread.

[Bratot]

So is it more as a means or more as a goal, be more precise?

I know what we are talking about, we have to go step by step in order to demarcate our positions.

[Risto the Great]

Here you go Bratot:

Bratot, you reject the interim accord but do not reject the consequences arising from it.

Clearly it has not been rejected in your heart and mind.

[Vangelovski]

I think you don't understand anything of what you suggest nor aware of the point of my question.

The freedom is not self sustainable cathegory and no one is going to handout your right for self-determination if you aren't going to achieve it by yourself.

Again, my question, if you are not going to answer, don't reply me and allow the discussion to run.

WHO suggested that our freedom is something that needs to be given to us? Do you understand what self-determination is and how it is attained? Do you understand what I have been saying - that we need to exercise our freedom OURSELVES???

Freedom is not self-sustainable??? Is that what you just said??? WTF does that mean??? Are you suggesting that self-determination is not possible for the Macedonians? Are you suggesting that we need a 'big brother'??? Didn't you just say that we need to achieve our own freedom and then in the same breath claim that freedom is not self-sustainable??? WTF are you on about???

[Bratot]

Risto,

when you do sign something as valid contract, are you able to cease it validity only by your heart and mind?

Was my question to complicated to give a plain answer?

[Vangelovski]

Risto,

when you do sign something as valid contract, are you able to cease it validity only by your heart and mind?

Was my question to complicated to give a plain answer?

The IA is not a "valid" contract. A SOVEREIGN people are not subject to the whims of foreign governments, as is the case of the IA.

Now the cat is finally out of the bag - you consider the Interim Accord "valid", which means that you must consider Greece's "greivances" as "legitimate". This adds another layer to your ideological problems.

[Bratot]

WHO suggested that our freedom is something that needs to be given to us? Do you understand what self-determination is and how it is attained? Do you understand what I have been saying - that we need to exercise our freedom OURSELVES???

Freedom is not self-sustainable??? Is that what you just said??? WTF does that mean??? Are you suggesting that self-determination is not possible for the Macedonians? Are you suggesting that we need a 'big brother'??? Didn't you just say that we need to achieve our own freedom and then in the same breath claim that freedom is not self-sustainable??? WTF are you on about???

Take a breath or two and tone it down, save your assumptions and insinuations for someone who is adequately dumb to buy it from you.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, are you scared of the legal consequences of rejecting the Interim Agreement in your heart and mind? Is this the only reason why you have avoided admitting the contradiction of your thought processes in this regard? Unless you personally signed the agreement I fail to see why you feel the best strategy in this regard is to be nice and compliant for the Greeks. Feel free to avoid talking about the contradiction in your life.

[Vangelovski]

Take a breath or two and tone it down, save your assumptions and insinuations for someone who is adequately dumb to buy it from you.

They were YOUR statements that I was responding to.

[Bratot]

The IA is not a "valid" contract. A SOVEREIGN people are not subject to the whims of foreign governments, as is the case of the IA.

Now the cat is finally out of the bag - you consider the Interim Accord "valid", which means that you must consider Greece's "greivances" as "legitimate". This adds another layer to your ideological problems.

Lets work with facts.

The Government of Macedonia is legal entity or not?

Did Macedonia signed this agreement and ratified in her Parlament?

Or maybe start with answering what institution or body and on which regulations is entitled to give advisory opinions or to solve international disputes.

Bratot, are you scared of the legal consequences of rejecting the Interim Agreement in your heart and mind? Is this the only reason why you have avoided admitting the contradiction of your thought processes in this regard? Unless you personally signed the agreement I fail to see why you feel the best strategy in this regard is to be nice and compliant for the Greeks. Feel free to avoid talking about the contradiction in your life.

Risto,

have you consulted at least ONE expert on international law about this matter?

[Rogi]

Bratot, let's say we had a bet and you lost. Now, assume this bet was 'legal' in the strictest sense, in the same way as you view the Interim Accord as 'legal'. Suppose however, in that legal bet, the terms were that you are supposed to give up being Macedonian and your entire family is forced to do the same.

Would you accept your new predicament without argument, because it is 'legal' and accept it as 'legal'? Must your family too accept their new predicament of being forced to give up being Macedonian, because you signed some agreement without their permission?

Or would you understand that the legitimacy you place on this bet, is not real and cannot be real, for there is no human law that can supersede natural law and there is no goal greater than protecting the natural law, your rights and your freedom.

Questioning whether the termination of the negotiations and interim accord is a goal in itself, or a means to a greater goal, indicates you've missed, or misunderstood, what is most fundamental. Perhaps you can look into natural law versus positive law.

[Bratot]

We are talking about international law, if not we shoudln't even bother to sign any other agreement on a national level wether it regulates some economical, political or cultural issues.

The point is, when you say something is not legal, you are basing that argument on some regulations that regulate, I asked which?

Can civil rights exist within a country withour a strict regulative, how will you ensure respect for our human rights?

How our State is going to secure the rights of its citizens out of its borders?

How will our State defend the interests of our minority?

[Rogi]

Again, you are completely missing the point. Again let me stress the point that you should seek to understand natural law first, because therein you will find your answers.

Perhaps our forum member 'Grotius' can offer you some more insight?

After all, Hugo Grotius is credited as laying the foundations for international law, based on natural law.