Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Prolet]

Onur, Im happy to see the Vlachs in Greece finally looking to the bright side and not living in the dark ages. In some cases they were bigger Greeks then the Greeks themselves, Solun has alot of Vlachs and now the Mayor of Solun is one of them but this is good news for the Turks even though there is far too much nationalism in Greece at the moment.

The reality is that its very tough in Greece and their attitude has lead them to going so far behind in the Eurozone, Turkey for example has done fantastically well economically and i think they have the 3rd largest economic rise this year which is fantastic i think Greece should be more liberal and look whats best for them and having those neo nazi nationalists and a Church thats meddling in their affairs is also not helping. They should think about how they are going to pay back the foreign debt they owe and how they are going to survive within the next few years economically because right now they need all the help they can get.

[indigen]

Boutaris is playing the "Good Cop" role.
Don't get fascinated by such obvious political contrast for a same purpose, to have us officially debate over his "solution" and devaluate our starting position from - no name change - into - double formula.

The ORIGNINAL "double name formula" (Macedonia for the World and a name by which Greece may call us, negotiated or freely chosen by them) has been propagated for a long time by the VASSALS of both SDSM and DPMNE and had/has some "acceptance" by Macedonians. Thus I see that the Grks and the VASSALS are aware of this and continue to manipulate with this latest report.

It is worth noting that the Gruevski government has been promoting this position as well but the CURRENT DOUBLE NAME FORMULA is much DIFFERENT from the ORIGINAL one.

[indigen]

Indigen, He's not very informative on that part, he is not liked by the Greek Church or the Greek Nationalists.

I asked for your opinion, Prolet! Surely a smart and politically informed internet warrior like you should be able to give us an opinion of what the "double name formula" means today!?

Can you please give us an outline and opinion of both (original and current) double name formulas as you understand them to be!?

[Prolet]

Indigen, I dont use enough swear words to be labeled as an internet warrior :-)

I always understood the dvojna formula as one name for Greece (Whatever they wish to call us) and Republic of Macedonia in which over 130 countries have recognized our name. I would assume this is what the Mayor of Solun is talking about, he's already been attacked by the Greek Nationalists and the Greek Church but i agree with Bratot here i think he is playing the good cop role and i think he wants to see more Macedonians come and spend their money in Solun.

[Bratot]

here's more from the manifest

.

kako sto zivejale dosega i ako ste verni i dostojni cinoj na majka makedonija.....

Bratot can you translate that part for me. does the Manifest call non-macedonians verni i dostojni cinoj na majka makedonija?? Oh sh!t that's revisionist

And how to you crackpots explain how Krusevo has always and still has a large Vlach population? Should we bayonet the Vlachs because they're not Macedonian?

Now we can argue about history ad nauseam and spin crazy Soros/Mason/Metoist/Alien/Antichrist theories but how does that stop discrimination against Macedonians? How does that get our identity recognized?

How many posts does it take until Macedonia gets recognize????

You have problems to understand and read Macedonian don't you?

Don't get into discussion about Macedonian history with me since you completelly depend on foreign interpretation as a result of your inability to read Macedonian, you are bringing only shame on yourself.

To save your time, you are wrong in your interpretation of the selected sentence.

Here it is in English:

If you consider us as your brothers and wish us well, if you intend to live with us as you have lived so far and if you are faithful and worthy sons of our mother Macedonia, you could help us in one way at least - and it would be of a great help indeed. Not ally with the enemies, do not raise a gun against us and do not oppress the Christian villages!

This was my last reply to you on this matter, therefore I ask the admins to leave your pitful posts which are showing elementary ignorancy of both Macedonian history and language and from this point now on to ensure staying on-topic on this thread.

[Bratot]

The ORIGNINAL "double name formula" (Macedonia for the World and a name by which Greece may call us, negotiated or freely chosen by them) has been propagated for a long time by the VASSALS of both SDSM and DPMNE and had/has some "acceptance" by Macedonians. Thus I see that the Grks and the VASSALS are aware of this and continue to manipulate with this latest report.

It is worth noting that the Gruevski government has been promoting this position as well but the CURRENT DOUBLE NAME FORMULA is much DIFFERENT from the ORIGINAL one.

This is very important part for all Macedonians, to not trust any of these parties.

3 years ago I was deluded by this propaganda and would agree on a double formula, but that changed when I got more informed about the legal aspect of the issue and when I finally realized that none of the political parties in Macedonia promote the Macedonian cause i.e. they are unworthy of any support.

The double formula in Greek understanding: Geographycally determinated name of Macedonia for the world and Republic of Macedonia for domestic use.

[Risto the Great]

A few years ago I used to think a formula where Greece calls Macedonia whatever it wants and the rest of the world calls Macedonia as Macedonia was acceptable. A course in logic meant that I had to reassess my stupidity and realise how damaging THAT was. Anything less than this is even more damaging.

Macedonia is Macedonia .... Greece is Greece (well sort of anyway).

[indigen]

Indigen, I dont use enough swear words to be labeled as an internet warrior :-)

IMO, you would in any case qualify for a good DPME party internet soldier! Dobro partisko vojniche mi si ti!

I always understood the dvojna formula as one name for Greece (Whatever they wish to call us) and Republic of Macedonia in which over 130 countries have recognized our name.

That is the old formula, which has been invalid for more than 2 years! Thus you only answered one of 2 questions, which Bratot above answered half of the 2nd question. Can you please answer the rest of the question, the part about what the current political elites in Macedonia consider to be a valid "double name" formula in play today?

I would assume this is what the Mayor of Solun is talking about,

I am sure you know that is NOT the case but are trying to dupe people!

[Phoenix]

Indigen, He's not very informative on that part, he is not liked by the Greek Church or the Greek Nationalists.

I think he wants to bring more tourists from Stari Kraj,i cant see why else he would say such things. He seems better then the other Mayor of Solun, that guy was an arsehole.

Prolet how does the latest "arsehole" parading as Mayor of Solun differ to the previous "arsehole"...afterall, the latest "arsehole" still refers to us as "skopjans"...I fail to understand yours and other peoples belief that the current "arsehole" is more progressive...

[indigen]

This is very important part for all Macedonians, to not trust any of these parties.

3 years ago I was deluded by this propaganda and would agree on a double formula, but that changed when I got more informed about the legal aspect of the issue and when I finally realized that none of the political parties in Macedonia promote the Macedonian cause i.e. they are unworthy of any support.

The double formula in Greek understanding: Geographycally determinated name of Macedonia for the world and Republic of Macedonia for domestic use.

Good points that need to be continuously repeated!

I think the political establishment in Macedonia would accept the Greek version of the "double name" formula but will try to get a variation on it before capitulating. What do you think they are capable of conceding and imposing on Macedonians?

[George S.]

I would not accept greece's double name formula.That would give greece the right to call us anything it wan'ts.Also why give greece the satisfaction of trying to appease them when we are macedonian & they need to accept & live with that.If greece is not happy with the name macedonia well tough cookies.I for one don't care for greece as it doesn't care for us.
About 130 countries call us macedonia who cares what greece thinks.We should not let greece win out like it has done with the flag

[Louis Riel]

What is this?This guy is being a racist and he's calling other people fanatics?Talking about thinking freely?Take your fucking head out of your ass Mr.Mayor and say MACEDONIANS!

The only double formula thats acceptable is 1)Greece recognizes Macedonians 2)Greece recognizes Macedonia.

[Bratot]

Good points that need to be continuously repeated!

I think the political establishment in Macedonia would accept the Greek version of the "double name" formula but will try to get a variation on it before capitulating. What do you think they are capable of conceding and imposing on Macedonians?

The Greek "double formula" is nothing else than their ERGA OMNES (name for every use), and it is sell to us as a 'Double' formula because of the wider acceptance of the previous (already invalid) double formula that Prolet stated upper, that's why this whole confussion that is being spread.

Frchkovski is LYING that we are talking about replacement of the PROVISIONAL NAME (Former Yugoslav Rep. of Macedonia) and not the factual name of our state for the international purposes.

That is telling enough about the effort to fool the people and to push through the GREEK "DOUBLE" FORMULA:

Permanent change for International use ( for everyone else in the world)

and

Domestical use of the current name( whispering at home )

I think they are VERY capable of achieving this if we are not LOUD and AGRESSIVELY opposing any solution that contains a change for our name.

(Something I already posted in other thread)

There are 2 very successful methods to resist the propaganda against Macedonian interests:

1. WHEN THE PROPAGANDA ACTIVITIES ARE INTESIVE,
YOU BE RESERVED
(if they are trying to make an elephant of the ant, you make the elephant -> ant!)

This kind of behavior is recommended because often in the persuasive campaign the agitators want us to accept anything, uncritically and hasty, without thinking.

2. WHEN THEY ARE THE ABSTAINERS, YOU INTENSIFY YOUR OWN ACTIVITY
(If they are making the elephant -> ant, you do the ant -> elephant)

This method of resistance requires a state of readiness, curiosity and active participation.
The Agitators as much as they want to accentuate their advantages or benefits of their ideas, the same they want to minimize or omitt their disadvantages.

If you allow the Agitators to present only their supposed advantages then they will be taken as that.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=78487#post78487

[Risto the Great]

Domestical use of the current name( whispering at home )[/B]

The entire Macedonian mindset is pretty much summed up with this. It would seem most are embarrassed to shout their identity in case it upsets someone. Macedonia's problems stem from this.

[Vangelovski]

The entire Macedonian mindset is pretty much summed up with this. It would seem most are embarrassed to shout their identity in case it upsets someone. Macedonia's problems stem from this.

UMD's policies stem from this mentality.