Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Makedonska_Kafana]

MK - are these Meto's comments? How's it a good article?

This article calls on us to be admitted to NATO under FYROM and to accept a "geographic qualifier" for the name.

yes, earlier today on fb. very stupid again and a red flag!

My reply to him ..

Well, a good start would be to avoid any governments or organizations that support this ethnic cleansing process to become members . A Name Is A Name or maybe it's not?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Macedonians should be outraged by these types of comments, sell our soul to racists!!

[Phoenix]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/op...ssen.html?_r=1

Meto Koloski (facebook)

Macedonia was, is, and always will be Macedonia! The article was a good article I thought. Macedonia has lost a lot of support over the last years, so we need to build that support back.

What is Koloski talking about when he says "Macedonia has lost a lot of support over the last years..."

today Macedonia is recognized by an unprecedented 125+ nations around the world, exluding the majority of EU and NATO members, the very organizations that Koloski and his stable of donkeys pander to at every available picture opportunity...

Why would Koloski expect others to maintain their support for Macedonian interests when he himself has openly proposed certain compromises to our identity...

Sooner rather than later Koloski and UMD will be crushed under the weight of their own shit...the pile continues to grow...

[Makedonska_Kafana]

what is koloski talking about when he says "macedonia has lost a lot of support over the last years..."

umd membership?

[Prolet]

Phoenix, I cant stand to look at Feure anymore, what a terrible excuse for an EU representative.

http://sitel.com.mk/video/makedonija/vo-izveshtajot-za-napredok-ja-nema-pridavkata-%E2%80%9Cmakedonski%E2%80%9D

[Vangelovski]

umd membership?

You may be right. At the 2009 UMD Global Conference, Meto stated his view that UMD is the equivalent of the Macedonian state, i.e., that UMD is the Macedonian state - so by loss of support for Macedonia, he naturally must mean UMD?

[indigen]

yes, earlier today on fb. very stupid again and a red flag!

My reply to him ..

Well, a good start would be to avoid any governments or organizations that support this ethnic cleansing process to become members . A Name Is A Name or maybe it's not?

Is there a link to the FB comments or does one need a FB account to see it?

The NYT article is in line with what MFA has on its website in the Antonio Miloshoski interview for German media. Though one can speculate about the "origin" of the ORIGINAL idea.

ГРЦИЈА СЕ ОДНЕСУВА ИРАЦИОНАЛНО
Скопје, 8 Октомври 2010 година

Интервју на Министерот за надворешни работи, Антонио Милошоски, за германскиот дневен весник, “Suddeutsche Zeitung”

Г-не Милошоски, во секое интервју прво Ве прашуваат за спорот со Грција околу името. Нели ви е жал за тоа?

- О да! И и тоа е навистина еден ирационален спор, тешко разбирлив за сите. Една приказна за Давид и Голијат, во која ние сме Давид.

Во Јоргос Папандреу, Грција доби еден реформистички премиер, Ви дава ли тоа одредена надеж?

- Да, Папандреу остварува средби со нашиот Премиер на повеќе меѓународни форуми и собири, порано такво нешто не беше возможно. Со Папандреу добивме повеќе фотографирање и насмевки, подобри зборови, но не и реално придвижување. Грција зборува за национална црвена линија. Црвената боја не е боја на компромисот. Атина бара да ги промениме нашите пасоши, интернет страниците, декларацијата на виното кое го извезуваме во Германија, при што истото не смее да се именува како македонско! Тоа е ирационално.

И што може да направи Македонија?

- Ние немаме соодветна „тежина„ да и се спротивставиме на Грција. На тој начин, нашата европска перспектива е ставена во заложништво. Исто така, на Самитот на НАТО во Букурешт, 2008 година, Грција стави вето на приемот на Македонија иако согласно Времената спогодба, постои член со кој нашето зачленување во меѓународни организации не смее да се блокира доколку притоа се користи привременото име. Затоа, поведовме соодветна постапка заради прекршување на оваа Спогодба пред Меѓународниот суд во Хаг и очекуваме соодветна одлука во врска со валидноста на Спогодбата.

Но, што тогаш би било можен компромис за кој зборувате?

- Ова е и за нас многу емоционално прашање и за негово решавање мора да се добие согласност од јавноста на референдум. Според последните испитувања на јавноста, 67% од неселението отфрла било каква промена на името, а само 24% се флексибилни.

Значи изнаоѓањето на решение ќе биде многу тешко.

- Но, не и невозможно, кога политичките елити, владата и опозицијата ќе бидат во таквото решение убедени. Ние ги плаќаме трошоците околу спорот и ние сакаме истиот да се надмине.

Од НАТО Самитот во ноември не очекувате некаков сигнал?

- Не, но имаме еден предлог. Кога ние би направиле голема национална отстапка со цел да ги отпочнеме преговорите со ЕУ, мораме да бидеме сигурни дека Грција нема повторно да не блокира по четвртото или десеттото поглавје. Затоа, треба двата процеси паралелно да се одвиваат, така што дури по официјалниот прием на РМ во ЕУ би важело новото име. На тој начин, можеме да ја надминеме недовербата во целиот случај.

Велите Грција се однесува нерационално. Зошто тогаш во Скопје се поставуваат се повеќе статуи од Александар Велики? Тоа во Атина се сфаќа како провокација.

- Јас бев уште дете кога Македонија пред 20 години стана независна. Во тоа време не бевме толку концентрирани кон антиката. Но, колку повеќе Грција ја претставуваше историјата како забрането овошје за нас, толку поголема беше мотивацијата да се каже дека и ние не сме народ без корени. Тоа е веројатно комплекс на малите нации, мислам дека национализмот на едната страна може исто така да го разбуди национализмот на другата страна.

А, учебниците со карти од голема Македонија?

- Јас се образував во Македонија и никогаш не сум учел такво нешто. Грција се обидува да шири конфузија со тврдењата дека Македонија има територијални претензии. Тоа е толку смешно како некој да каже дека Луксембург има територијални претензии кон Германија. Ние имаме само 8.000 војници и 8 хеликоптери и во изминативе 20 години никогаш не сме имале безбедносен проблем со Грција.

Постои ли, според вашите согледувања, стремеж кај албанското малцинство во Македонија за креирање на една голема Албанија?

- Со зачленувањето на Албанија во НАТО, идејата за голема Албанија е исцрпена. Ниту една НАТО држава нема да дозволи и дискутира за промени на граници. Тоа е добро за целиот регион.

Во Европа е актуелна дебатата за улогата на муслиманите. Како вие гледате на тоа? Во вашата земја има мешано население.

- Во Македонија исламот не е новост, јас сум со тоа израснат. Ние сме се за модел на интеграција без асимилација. Тоа не е секогаш идеално, но функционира. Постои соодветно почитување, но и одредени предрасуди. Во Германија како и во Европа, исламот е нешто ново, странско, непознато. Но, можеби треба германското општество да го заборави и отфрли зборот Gastarbeiter “гости работници“, бидејќи има семејства кои се присутни овде 40 години, заедно со културата и традицијата во своите домови и тоа ќе остане така за секогаш. Затоа поларизацијата на едно општество не е решение и со популизмот се остваруваат само краткорочни добивки.

http://www.mfa.gov.mk/default1.aspx?ItemID=274&id=979

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Is there a link to the FB comments or does one need a FB account to see it?

You need an account and also be friends with Jason Miko to read Meto's comments.

[Vangelovski]

You need an account and also be friends with Jason Miko to read Meto's comments.

I just found it (and saved it) - thanks MK. Its actually worse than I first thought. There is a gentleman there challenging Meto that he should oppose the article because it calls on Macedonia to accept FYROM and that's when Meto states that he thought it was a good article...

Argie I completely agree, however it appears that the EU is following the NATO line by beginning to suggest that the Rep. of Macedonia can not enter under fyROM. It's a sad day for the aforementioned organizations, when they lack the principals they claim to adhere too. 11 hours ago

Jason Miko
That is the main reason why the world is in such a miserable state of affairs. 10 hours ago

Meto Koloski
And that is why my friends we need to change this! 10 hours ago

Gligor Tashkovich
Absolutely! 9 hours ago ·

Alex
20 years later, a change of flag, an embargo, a veto plus plus plus .. that option (FYROM) will never be accepted in diaspora.

NO DEALS WITH ATHENS! 6 hours ago ·

Alex
Meto, you accept FYROM? 6 hours ago

Argie
While I don't speak as a representative of the UMD, I'm confident that the position of the UMD with regards to Macedonia's name issue with our southern neighbor is public and clear.

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/488/51/

"UMD's unwaveri...ng and consistent support for the Republic of Macedonia’s one and only constitutional and rightful name and UMD's rejection of attempts to change or impose any other name on the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian people hereby declares..."See more
6 hours ago

Alex
Then Meto should be totally against this article? 6 hours ago


Argie
What the article is suggesting, as is the current government of the Rep. of Macedonia given their battle within the auspices of the ICJ is that the Hellenic Republic should abide by the 1995 Interim Agreement and allow Macedonia to enter NA...TO, EU and other International Organization under the provisional name.

Whether we like/agree with the '95 Agreement is for another discussion, however given that it has been in place for 15 years and Macedonia has fulfilled its obligations, our southern neighbor should fulfill them as well, however my initial post claims that a positive ruling by the ICJ will fall on deaf ears.See more
6 hours ago


Alex
Angie, my concern is not with what governments are doing (criminals) more what organizations in diaspora are doing for the Macedonians outside of Macedonia. My roots are not from the Republic of Macedonia and if they accept FYROM they lose our support forever. 6 hours ago ·

Meto Koloski
Macedonia was, is, and always will be Macedonia! The article was a good article I thought. Macedonia has lost a lot of support over the last years, so we need to build that support back. 4 hours ago ·

Alex
Well, a good start would be to avoid any governments or organizations that support this ethnic cleansing process to become a members . A Name Is A Name or maybe it's not? 4 hours ago

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=781539257&v=wall

[Makedonska_Kafana]

yes, that's it keep tabs on it please, the more feedback the better

[Risto the Great]

Well, a good start would be to avoid any governments or organizations that support this ethnic cleansing process to become a members .

This fellow had the right idea.

What is the article everyone was discussing? It is worth posting here for the benefit of completeness.

[Vangelovski]

RtG, this is the article:

I.H.T. Op-Ed Contributor

The Balkans Can Still Be Lost

By SOREN JESSEN-PETERSEN and DANIEL SERWER

Published: November 10, 2010

As NATO, the United States, the European Union and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe prepare for summit meetings this fall, the Balkans may yet spoil the party.

The peace-building process there boasts remarkable successes — the end of the Bosnian war, the fall of Slobodan Milosevic and the rise of democratic Serbia, the independence of Kosovo, impending Croatian membership in the E.U. But failure in the Balkans is still a possibility and would embarrass Europeans and Americans alike.

There are three issues that haunt the region: Bosnia and Herzegovina is a country that remains mired in continuing — though currently nonviolent — ethnic tension; relations between Serbia and Kosovo remain unsettled; and Macedonia is unable to join NATO or the European Union until Greece’s objection to its name (which Athens claims for Greece) is resolved.

Bosnia’s problems are rooted in the Constitution imposed on the warring factions 15 years ago at the Dayton peace talks. It creates a nonfunctional state unable to meet the many requirements of either NATO or E.U. membership. Constitutional amendments are required to eliminate discrimination on ethnic grounds and provide the Sarajevo government with the authority and responsibility it needs to negotiate for NATO and E.U. membership.

Efforts to impose such amendments have failed. What Brussels and Washington need to do now is set out clear criteria that Sarajevo will have to meet before and during the E.U. accession process. Recent elections in Bosnia open up new possibilities for reform, and Serbia’s own progress toward the E.U. should depend on its willingness to insist that the Bosnian Serbs cooperate with the country’s Muslims and Croats to amend the Constitution in ways that will make E.U. membership possible.

On Kosovo, the U.N. General Assembly in October recommended that talks begin on practical issues (like trade, energy, environment, health, border facilities, missing persons, return of the displaced) between Belgrade and Pristina, with the E.U. facilitating and the U.S. supporting. This is a good idea whose time has come, but Belgrade will try to use the talks to suggest “corrections” to Kosovo’s borders that would allow Serbia to absorb the Serb communities in northern Kosovo.

This movement of a border to accommodate ethnic differences is dangerous and would open up border questions throughout the Balkans: certainly in Macedonia and Bosnia, but likely also in the Albanian-populated areas of southern Serbia and Montenegro as well. Serbia and Kosovo need to stick to the task at hand, establishing good relations on a host of practical issues on the basis of mutual respect, as required for E.U. accession.

The government in Skopje faces an uphill battle against Athens, which wants “Macedonia” to be qualified in a way that will distinguish it from what Greeks claim to be exclusively their own domain. Without resolution of this issue, Macedonia faces a long purgatory, without the NATO membership for which it has prepared and without any serious prospect of E.U. membership, a prospect that has kept the country’s ethnic groups from descending into internecine warfare.

Brussels and Washington need to untie this knot, which has tightened with every passing year since Macedonia’s independence in 1991. It hardly seems appropriate for Athens to be thumbing its nose at Brussels at a time when it desperately needs E.U. economic backing. For NATO membership, Washington and Brussels should insist that Greece live up to its 1995 agreement to accept Skopje under the euphemistic and anachronistic name “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom).” Provided Skopje is prepared to signal its willingness to add an acceptable geographic qualifier to its name, it is time also for the E.U. to give Macedonia a date for the start of accession talks, a move that would further stabilize the country and also create a strong incentive for Skopje and Athens to come to terms.

The peace-building mission in the Balkans is not yet accomplished, even after 15 years of often close U.S./E.U. cooperation. Only when all the region’s countries are irreversibly on a course toward the E.U. will we be able to celebrate. Likely no more than five more years are required. Until then, we need to keep the Balkans on track, ensuring that Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia remain on the train.
Soren Jessen-Petersen, a Dane and Daniel Serwer, an American, are lecturers at Georgetown University. They have worked on the Balkans for 15 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/op...ssen.html?_r=1

[Makedonska_Kafana]

The Balkans Can Still Be Lost

DANIEL SERWER (ASSHOLE)

Yet another RED FLAG - Bedfellows

[Risto the Great]

Oh, I read that earlier today and was too disgusted to even bother putting it on this forum.

Let me just say a few people have dropped off my Christmas Card list.

Provided Skopje is prepared to signal its willingness to add an acceptable geographic qualifier to its name

What part of this is cool with you Meto?

[Risto the Great]

Absolutely disgusting and no wonder so many doubts over the UMD given its "say one thing mean something else" strategy.

Go UMD team ... give us an answer about why it is a good article.

A good article would highlight the hypocrisy and self serving interests of the ruling powers and demand Macedonia be afforded some respect. This is not an article like that.