Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[indigen]

Macedonians are being brainwashed to avoid saying MACEDONIA...

...by the political establishment in Ramkovist Macedonia, the state institutions under their control, their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora and those who follow their lead out of ignorance!

Do you agree or disagree?

02-13-2010, 02:41 AM #98
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UMD has never defended the term 'FYROM.' UMD does not support the name "the
former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and definitely does not support acronyms.
This is ridiculous. The name of Macedonia is Republic of Macedonia.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...8&postcount=98

Advocating entry into EU and NATO under the terms of the "Interim Accord" is
advocating for FYROM and ENDORSEMENT of the TREASONOUS "IA" itself! If you or
anyone else can not comprehend that, then you have an IQ of an OVCA (Sheep) and
are beyond redemption, IMHO! :-)

FYI: Macedonia's rightful name is MACEDONIA and the addition of the
constitutional reference "Republic" is a COMPROMISE OFFER that IS
deceptively presented as being the "real and only" name of the country.

Professor Kramer on Macedonia and Macedonians:

"....Професорката наведува дека не е политичар, туку лингвист, но сепак, не може да
ја сфати суштината на спорот околу името.

„Македонија е Македонија. Македонскиот јазик е македонски јазик. Македонскиот
народ е македонскиот народ. Не ми е јасно во што е прашањето. Зошто една
држава може да вели дека од ден-денес, оваа држава, овој народ, овој јазик треба
да најде друго име. Веќе има име и името е Македонија“, вели Крамер...."

[Risto the Great]

Professor Kramer on Macedonia and Macedonians:

"....Професорката наведува дека не е политичар, туку лингвист, но сепак, не може да
ја сфати суштината на спорот околу името.

„Македонија е Македонија. Македонскиот јазик е македонски јазик. Македонскиот
народ е македонскиот народ. Не ми е јасно во што е прашањето. Зошто една
држава може да вели дека од ден-денес, оваа држава, овој народ, овој јазик треба
да најде друго име. Веќе има име и името е Македонија“, вели Крамер...."

It is always nice when non-Macedonians say this.
It is always bad when Macedonians cannot say this.

[indigen]

It is always nice when non-Macedonians say this.
It is always bad when Macedonians cannot say this.

Regrettably very, very TRUE, RTG.
There seems to be a NAUSEATING campaign emanating from the Macedonian Government and their agencies to just parrot-like keep pretending that the name of the state is nothing other than "Republic of Macedonia" ("Republika Makedonija") even for home consumption and the use of the conventional short form name Macedonia is avoided like the plague, especially by the younger individuals (ministers or otherwise).

[Pelister]

They have to forget about that racist shithole the E.U - not becoming a member will not be the end of the world, we will go on existing as long as we stay true to who we are. The trouble is that the Macedonians are trying to 'buy' their way to 'recognition' (in the same way that Meto Koloski has been trying to 'sell' our willingness to compromise on the name), and as the New Greeks place copyright restrictions on the name, and the symbol, the Macedonians don't know how to defend themselves, legally and historically against such 'retrictions' on their identity. The FIRST STEP toward the defence of our identity is to stop negotiating immediately.

[julie]

Absolutely Pelister. The brainwashing must stop. Negotations must stop. Macedonians must stop allowing the genocide of their own nation.

[Daniel the Great]

„Македонија е Македонија. Македонскиот јазик е македонски јазик. Македонскиот
народ е македонскиот народ. Не ми е јасно во што е прашањето. Зошто една
држава може да вели дека од ден-денес, оваа држава, овој народ, овој јазик треба
да најде друго име. Веќе има име и името е Македонија“, вели Крамер...."]

Beautifully said by Kramer right from the start when he said "Macedonia is Macedonia" well done.

[Pelister]

Absolutely Pelister. The brainwashing must stop. Negotations must stop. Macedonians must stop allowing the genocide of their own nation.

I wish there was something I could do. I hate the feeling of having my identity and heritage, the identity of my parents, and my grandparents and great-greatparents discussed behind closed doors by a few individuals as though it were a poker chip, because someone in 'the West' told them that if they want to survive they have to negotiate. I am even more surprised they would sign the Interim Accord, in which one of the terms was 'You must negotiate your name'. I am doubly surprised that UMD would support such a thing. These scoundrels, Gruevski and Co. and their Western lapdogs at UMD are morally bankrupt. They use terms such as 'civilised' and 'reasonable' as a case to continue negotiating, but this is just propoganda that takes away our right to say 'No' and our right to defend ourselves and our right to protect ourselves. I mean I've never seen anyone bend over because they thought they could profit from our misfortune and the unfortunate circumstances we find ourselves in like the Metoists in Washington.

[julie]

Pelister, everything you have said is the sad truth. Those unfortunate misfits are creating the genocide of our people. It saddens me and is hurtful , to have been through Ottoman era, with our heroes fighting for Macedonia, and through the horrible acts upon us in Egejska Maekdonia, to come to the year 2011 and have it all pissed away to gain a seat in US congress

[George S.]

You know we are our own worst people when we don't get the drift that we are just Macedonians & nothing else.Our enemies are greatfull to us because we give in to them so easily sadly there are people in rom who don't really care oneway or the other & it's destroying any chances macedonia has got or ever had.For example when over 130 countries around the world recognize us under our proper name,there's people within rom who advocate a weak point approach that is to appease our enemies & be called fyrom or yugoslave etc it's all in the name of appeasement.This approach can lead to utter destruction in the end if we don't wake up & let the world know who we really are.We are real & live blooded macedonians & they should not forget it.Anything less is completely unnaceptable.

[Risto the Great]

President Ivanov: 'Erga Omnes' doesn't work...

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/16797/2/

Tuesday, 09 November 2010

Greece's name proposal for overall use, erga omnes, does not offer a foundation to settle the Greek-Macedonian name row, Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov says in an interview with Greece's ELIAMEP institute published on Tuesday on its web-site.

"Erga omnes solution, proposed by Greece, is not realistic as a foundation for solution. Firstly, it clashes with all international principles for regulation of ties between states and secondly, it is not acceptable when two-thirds (129) of UN member countries have recognised the Republic of Macedonia under its constitutional name. They include three permanent members of the UN Security Council and other influential countries, such as Canada, Turkey, Brazil, etc," Ivanov says.

The right to choose a name is a fundamental right protected by the modern corpus of human rights.

"I wonder how can anyone even think to choose or propose a name for other people or suggest the constitution of some other country to be amended on issues related to identity that are fundamentally protected by the modern corpus of human rights. Therefore, we seek a fair solution in which there will be no winners or losers - a solution which will protect the dignity of both states and their nations," Ivanov stresses.

Greece, the President adds, hasn't made any concessions in the name dispute, instead it has accepted the idea of a complex name including the term Macedonia as the only option.

"We cannot discuss about concessions made by Greece, because in 1993 Macedonia became a member of UN with its temporary reference, which already included the term Macedonia. After the Edinburgh conference, where Greece's position was weakened, the Greek government had to accept the term Macedonia. But let's be honest, it wasn't an act of good will, it was the only option," President Ivanov says.

On the other hand, he adds, Macedonia has agreed to make considerable concessions upon Greek request. In line with the interim accord, it has changed the state flag and articles in the Constitution referring to the status of Macedonian minorities in neighbouring countries in order to assure the people of Greece that it had no territorial pretensions whatsoever. Macedonia has also conceded not to have exclusive rights on the use of the term Macedonia also for NATO and EU accession under the reference FYROM.

"Nevertheless, we witnessed in Bucharest (at the NATO summit in 2008) that Greece in fact violated the 1995 interim agreement in order to hinder Macedonia's Euro-Atlantic integration. We hope that court proceedings taking place at the Hague international court will soon confirm that Greece is the signatory country that had breached the agreement. At the same time, it has stalled our economic growth and regional stability," Ivanov notes.

Unfortunately, he says, country's perception that Greece is constantly radicalising its stances in an effort to postpone the settlement of the name dispute was officially confirmed with the infamous 8 points put forward by Greek name negotiator (Adamantios) Vassilakis to UN mediator (Matthew) Nimetz in late 2009.

Underlying that it won't be useful to comment any details of the name talks held under UN auspices in this stage, Ivanov states that a possible name solution cannot affect the Macedonian national and ethnic identity and Macedonian language.

"Hence, 'geographical' determinants, as it has been said before, seem incompatible with this basic principle, because they might clearly encroach on our identity," President Ivanov says in an interview with ELIAMEP.

Hellenic Foundation for European & Foreign Policy (ELIAMEP) is one of the most influential organizations in Greece. Its member is professor Evangelos Kofos, who is regarded as one of the main creators of Greece's strategy and policy towards Macedonia.

A whole heap of good comments.
Yet still a hint of Democratic Macedonia or something and Constitutional Names to leave a sour taste in the mouth at the end of it all.

[Vangelovski]

Its frightening how similar the UMD and Macedonian Government messages are. Ivanov begins by stating we have a right to our name. He then shows the world how foolish we are by demonstrating how we violated our own rights under the Interim Accord. If anyone hadn't understood so far, he went on to state that we are willing to compromise further, so long as this mystery name does not affect our identity and language...

[Dejan]

It's time for the MKD government to be less diplomatic and tell the world we are simply Macedonians. There are no excuses needed for that

[Vangelovski]

There is nothing wrong with "diplomacy" per se - its really only a method of communication between states. The real problem lies in the message that is being communicated. Rather than communicating that we alone will determine our own affairs, the Macedonian Government and its lackeys communicate the message that they are happy for other's to determine our affairs. Why? Because they think their vassalship will be rewarded.

[Pelister]

Its frightening how similar the UMD and Macedonian Government messages are. Ivanov begins by stating we have a right to our name. He then shows the world how foolish we are by demonstrating how we violated our own rights under the Interim Accord. If anyone hadn't understood so far, he went on to state that we are willing to compromise further, so long as this mystery name does not affect our identity and language...

Tom,

Between our fundamental right to exist and our political extermination the Macedonian government (and UMD) both believe that there is "room for meaneavring".

The Macedonian people have been 'hoodwinked' by these traitors.

The problem is that the government and UMD both believe that negotiating our identity as 'leverage' to gain admission to the E.U is not only an acceptable thing to be doing, but also a 'necessary' thing as A.Mitreski pointed out in a personal letter to myself. This situation we find ourselves in is a political whores paradise. I wouldn't go looking for any moral backbone, any ethical stance based on principles of natural justice, and historical justice. The whores at UMD have no idea what they are, all they care about is using our political existence and identity as leverage. They are only interested in 'buying' our way into club membership. These traitors know the terms and conditions down to the last letter - the terms of the Interim Accord that make slaves of us, and the Framework Agreement, which bind us and undermine our soveriegnty at the same time. A reasonable person might consider the conditions we find ourselves in, such as the ruthless suppression of our culture and our identity, but not UMD. From their point of view it is more about what they can get by leveraging our historical identity and political existence. You have to realise that for UMD this is a game, and our political existence and identity is a bargaining chip which they have never hesitated in using.

Whats the way out? It is simple. Stop using identity as a bargaining chip in international relations, and as a tool to score political 'brownie points' with the international community, because if the Macedonians are using 'the negotiations' as a tool to 'enhance' their IMAGE, sooner or later a number of players in the international community (our enemies) are going to hold the Macedonians to account for their 'game'. Its simple. If you the Macedonians are happy to be negotiating your identity, we are happy to make sure your admission is based on a 'result'. We see it happening already - the E.U, NATO and who is next? If the only MESSAGE we are sending the world is that we are happy to be negotiating our historical identity and poltiical existence, sooner rather than later countries are going to call us to account, by for example, withholding recognition until a 'solution' is found, such as the Australian case. We are damaging ourselves with this insane and foolish enterprise.

Basically, the only way we can save Macedonia right now is to REJECT THE NEGOTIATIONS, immediately.

All the current processes, and international aggreements relating to our identity, Interim Accord...etc, that bind us, need to be rescinded on the basis of self preservation, and Gruevski needs to send a stern warning to the E.C that the ruthless suppression of our identity STOPS HERE, AND STOPS NOW.

If such a letter were ever written by Gruevski it would be a good thing to remind the E.C of something that they all know. The Greeks, Buglarians and Serbians "seized Macedonian territory (Macedonian territory) through an illegal use of force" in 1912 and 1913. Macedonia was never Greek.

[Prolet]

I think its time that we start looking after ourselves and not leave our destiny in other peoples hands. I'm Critical of Gjorgje Ivanov as i think he has the duty to protect our name and identity at all cost, I still think he is the best President we've had so far but when you compare his competition with those before him Branko Crvenkovski,Boris Trajkovski and Kiro Gligorov it would only take an average Macedonian to do better then them.

President Ivanov must not bow to USA and the EU and do whats best for the Macedonian People, he must not give the slightest inch of indication that he's willing to compromise our name.

Vangelovski is right, i think its time we start doing whats best for our country and our people not look at other countries interests. Its time we start to look like a proper country.