Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Royal Hellas]

What evidence do you have that suggests Greece will define its minority?
Doesn't that effectively admit that it has been duping the masses for 100 years now.
Why should the Macedonian minority of Greece be called the same name as the changed name of the Republic? For example, let us say in a Greek wet dream, Macedonia is changed to North Macedonia .... why would the Southern Macedonians be called North Macedonians? Are you thick or just toeing the "corporate line"?

Greece will define the minority, as surely as the RoM will change its name.
Its a natural and logical conclusion to the current situation.
Greece is a modern European democracy and will honour all of its responsibilities. How can Greece not recognise the minority if they have a clear and accurate name by which o identify them with.
The status quo with the RoM is what is currently stifling the ability of Greece to deliver.
The procrastination from the RoM government on the name issue is clearly evident and is ultimately penalising the minority group.

In a Greek wet dream, and the RoM's nightmare, the name will revert back to Vardarska, but we know that is not an option.
As soon as the name is changed, Greece will be in a position to differentiate the Greek Macedonians from the North Macedonians.

[Royal Hellas]

For Greece to recognise any ethnic Minority, it will need to re establish the very fabric of their nation. Has this process already been prepared? I don't think so. It seems to me that we have Karaman and Bakoyani as the last bastions of what will be known as 'the old greece' in the future.

If ethnic Macedonians are recognised in Greece, another broader reality will need to be recognised, and that is that Greece is a multiethnic country. It is a fundamental shift in Greece's policy and identity as it is defined today.

Anyone who is trying to tell me that Greece is ready to recognise the Macedonian identity under her status-quo of democratic defficiency, is either pulling my leg or trying to take me for a fool.

Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.

[I of Macedon]

Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.

I don’t think you realise the gravity of the situation, whatsoever. Greece doesn’t care about the name of Macedonia (which is why they only changed the region to the latter in 1988 or 1989 when Yugoslavia was collapsing), Greece cares about its resource rich lands. You have to realise that that geographic area is the richest in Greece, there is even oil off the coast, this was one of if not the fundamental reason for the Balkan wars.

Didn’t you even consider realising as to why so many contradicting and confusing reports exist before and after the division of Macedonia in 1913 in terms of the ethnicity of the people? From many reports, articles and maps saying the whole area of geographic Macedonia there live predominantly Macedonians, with Bulgarian, turks etc and other reports suggesting that the whole area there are mostly Bulgarians and not mentioning Macedonians at all in some reports.

What you should be asking is why is there an abundance of reports, documents and other pieces of evidences, mentioning Macedonians and people referring to themselves as Macedonians before and after the division of Macedonia in 1913, If all the people in Macedonia are actually ethnic Bulgarians.

You have to also remember that these were the times when communication was through letters and speech and not like today through Global media and the internet. Therefore people could do almost whatever they wanted and it could go unnoticed to the world.

Also, have you then to consider as to why the Greek political parties never mention the times before and after the division of Macedonia, but only consider the time of Tito. This is because Greece cannot disprove such evidences whatsoever of the pre existence of Macedonians long before Tito. But what Greece try’s to do instead is attempt to desperately claim Greek connection with the Macedonians from ancient times, and therefore refocuses attentions towards ancient times, and forces Macedonians to try and proof their existence with the ancients, thus forgetting everything and all recent evidences before Tito. Greece does this because if they can somehow claim connection with the ancient Macedonians they can claim rights to the lands they now occupy. You have to remember that the land that Greece holds is tied up in a treaty, thus its not because it has historically owned it.

Have you also considered as to why it is that as of today many historians, especially those from elite institutions no longer consider the past ignorant claims of Macedonians as Greeks? Thus why would many historians and experts move away for the most part from the old traditional view if the Macedonians are undoubtedly Greeks? The fact is it’s politically motivated.

How can Greece say only Greeks live in Greece, but then Greek-Macedonians exits, Then Greeks can refer to themselves as Macedonians but ethnic Macedonians cannot?

How many Greeks in and around 1913 (or even before), can claim them being Macedonian from just before the division of Macedonia?

How many Greek speakers or whatever it is they spoke from Asia Minor and the surrounding regions (which estimate well over 1,000,000), referred to themselves on record or any other pieces of evidences as Macedonians before and during the population transfers in the early to mid twentieth century.

Why a published primer in 1925 by Greece referred in it the Macedonian language, but was just as quickly withdrawn?

I don’t understand how you can’t think for a moment as to Why? Why? Why?

The questions relating to the ancients is not whether Macedonians were Greek (because Macedonians were never referred to as Greeks nor did they refer to themselves as such – this the historians know),. its whether Alexander may have been at least half Greek. But does this give Greece an entire claim to the whole history of Macedonia (sure they can respect Alexander but to say that Macedonia is and always will be Greek despite all the evidence and experts views as of today) and then deprive the people who have always referred to themselves as Macedonian, and at the same time forces a nation of people to alter their nations name (due to political will and against all international norms).

The Macedonians have been fighting for Macedonia’s right to independence before its division in 1913, and led many uprising before. The name of the country is ultimately tied to our identity; just As Greece is to Greek.

But this again is pointless because you’ll never bother asking why so much evidence exists (a major problem in today’s Greece, granted there are exemptions) of us being referred to and known as simply Macedonian. You always assume this is what is and there are no exemptions to it, a trait familiar to Greece’s government initiatives.

[Royal Hellas]

I can assure you that Greece has taken all these points you raise into consideration as they are discussing the name dispute in the United Nations.
Lets hope that a solution is achieved quickly so that normal and friendly neighbourly relations can resume, and that irredentist land claims and the like are shelved once and for all.

[makedonin]

so that normal and friendly neighbourly relations can resume.

and you believe the crap, a?

[Traveller]

In 1960 tensions rose between Greece and Yugoslavia because propagandists from SFRM roamed Greek Macedonia and were causing unrest. Greek macedonian newspapers were asking the goverment not to allow them entry because people were saying that they will kill them.Greece protested to Tito and he said these are Kolisevskis blshit. But Greek historians who the last years were given access to Yugoslavias archives found that Tito was encouraging Kolisevski. MANY TIMES Greece protested for the signs SFR Makedonija in front of Yugoslavian delegations in REGIONAL summits. Roqi boy i am reading everyday a newspaper called "MAKEDONIA". It first circulated in Thessaloniki at 1903...

[Risto the Great]

Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.

Just like Victorians are Victorians is a more appropriate statement and highlights the stupidity of the Greek argument.

[Dejan]

The athenian government's arrogance will be it's downfall. Can't wait to see them squirm when the truth is acknowledged

[Bratot]

Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.

LOL

I couldnt laugh harder...

How about this one...

Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Macedonians are Europeans.




If only Greece recognize any of the minorities living within Greek boundaries, it will start the total decomposition of the "Greek" nation.

They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.

Finally we agree.
After the main problem of the "Greek" nation is revealed.

[Pelister]

Greece does not recognise the Macedonian ethnicity.
Greece sees Macedonians as Greeks, just like Victorians are Australians.
They cannot change their position on this, as it is illogical on their behalf.
They acknowledge a Bulgarian ethnicity but not a Μacedonian.

Coolski would support this in principle.

He supports the principle that the Macedonian nationality, may well be Greek in origin, or Albanian. Basically anyone who "feels" Macedonian can be, regardless of their ethnic origin.

[Rogi]

Pelister, I think you have substantially misinterpreted Coolski's posts.


How will the name game end?

Either capitulation by Macedonia, leading to a potential civil war in Macedonia (now that the majority of the population is against capitulation, it may lead to Governments being overthrown, etc)

or a potential war with Greece, once we get deeper into the Macedonian question and take the focus off the name.

Macedonia is no longer negotiating on the name because of the 'Interim Agreement'. The Interim Agreement has been anulled, it's no longer the basis for the name discussions.

Macedonia now (or rather, soon, but not soon enough) can bring the 'name dispute' to an end via the UN vote - it has not done so yet because it doesn't feel it has the diplomatic position needed to make that move. So, Macedonia continues to sit on the table and 'negotiate' (or waste time) until the time is right ('right', in the Government's opinion, in my opinion it has never been a better time).

There are a number of 'terms' in the Interim Agreement that Macedonia will not abide by, given that they are no longer basing talks in the interim agreement.

[Risto the Great]

Coolski would support this in principle.

He supports the principle that the Macedonian nationality, may well be Greek in origin, or Albanian. Basically anyone who "feels" Macedonian can be, regardless of their ethnic origin.

No he wouldn't Pelister.
I think you have a misunderstanding that we could all have between Nationality and Ethnicity.

For example, I believe Greece has hundreds of thousands of people who are Greek by Nationality but are Macedonian by ethnicity. Now what is happening to their ethnicity over time is another issue.

[Pelister]

No he wouldn't Pelister.
I think you have a misunderstanding that we could all have between Nationality and Ethnicity.

For example, I believe Greece has hundreds of thousands of people who are Greek by Nationality but are Macedonian by ethnicity. Now what is happening to their ethnicity over time is another issue.

Nationality vs Ethnicity? How do you separate the two?

To be a member of the Greek Nationality today, what does one have to do? Prove they are a Greek by genus, even if they are not?

The Greek Nationality is more than just a membership, or an identikit, isn't it?

Can someone with a Macedonian Nationality also have a Greek Nationality?

Is it as simple as saying I'm a citizen of this State, and a citizen of that State, therefore, I have a dual-Nationality? Sure, that is possible.

Is Nationality more than just citizenship? It could be I suppose. What form would it take if it was? How does one demonstrate their Greek Nationality? Is it simply a matter of saying I feel Greek, therefore, I am Greek? It's possible.

Can can a single word or line, in a manifesto accurately represent or define a Nationality? I don't think it can, and I don't think it should.


Did Albanians fighting under foriegn military command, against the Ottomans in Greece, have a Greek Nationality, or an Albanian Nationality, or both?

Another HUGE mistake being made is that Nationality relates to the emergence of the Nation state. One could argue the Macedonians had more of Nationality in the 1830's, than the Greeks, despite not having a Nation state for over another century.

The Macedonian Nationality didn't just magically appear to magically represent everyone.

I think that taking a post-modern interpretation of a few words in the Krushevo manifesto, is faslely represeting the Macedonian Nationality, which has in historical terms, represented the Macedonian ethnic group exclusively.

Sure, we could have even two or three nationalities these days, but the Macedonian nationality, has in historical terms, been nothing but Macedonian.

[Pelister]

The Name Issue !

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3758/45/

Should they be negotiating at all?

Havn't the Macedonians compromised enough already?

Could it end badly for the Macedonians? Are the Macedonians somehow "trapped" by these negotiations? Are the negotiations false, i.e., based on false assumptions, taken as truths?

Should negotiations end ?

[Risto the Great]

Negotiations should never have started.

We await a meeting with Mr. Crvenkovski, where he will inform us of what has been discussed or agreed and once we know that, we will decide on what the future steps will be

I hope it is a hangman's noose for Crvenkovski!