Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[Prolet]

Pelister, I do agree that things are improving alot for us and we can only hope for it to continue. We shouldnt be looking at eachother as enemies here, but rather learn from eachother on what needs to be done in order for these mistakes to never happen again. I think its time we stand up for ourselves and respect eachother because the others are not smarter then us.

We all know that Greece doesnt have energy resources, they dont produce Gas and Oil infact we give them electricity along with Albania. The Black Sea is used to transport Oil and Gas throughout Europe, alot of our Oil and Gas comes from Bulgaria Via Russia and now Serbia since their Blockade was lifted.

I dont blame Buktop for having that opinion but at the same time we dont need to gang up on him if we dont agree with his views. I think we can learn alot from eachother, we all view things differently, we come from different countries,societies and so forth there is no need to argue with eachother on certain things.

Education is something very important for us, we all learn something everyday and its time we stood up for ourselves because we are the only ones who can create our destiny, we are the only ones who can capitulate and destroy ourselves.

[Buktop]

Buktop, Rogi is right, our oil came via Romania and Bulgaria when there was a Greek Embargo. Serbia got the majority of its oil from Russia via Romania in the Black Sea. SDSM Deputy Leader Zoran Zaev made a fortune from all this, not only that but from Cigarette sales too.

Prolet, did you read my post? I know about the oil, I even went so far as to provide further evidence confirming this practice.

Corruption in this case was a direct result of the situation Greece put us in.

Do you know how much that oil cost to acquire from Bulgaria and Romania? "The effect of the blockade on oil prices has been
to increase the cost of transporting crude oil from $19 per ton to
$41.50 per ton." Geroski, pg. 13.

[Buktop]

The fallacious choice between freedom and avoiding starvation. This has got to be the con of the century.

I never said we were going to starve. Please feel free to ask me a question about the Economic impact of the embargo, come on, don't just ignore it with sweeping statements, indulge me in this argument, if only this one time, I would love you to try and prove me wrong.

I remember one man (a Macedonian - if you could call him one) in the early 90's attempting to justify his opposition to Macedonian independence by claiming Macedonians would starve because they did not have a pork industry. According to him, pork was imported from Serbia at the time and we needed our "brothers" for survival.

His argument was quite idiotic, but worse, it was a sad display of the lengths that people will go to - even at their own humiliating expense - to resist Macedonians exercising their natural rights.

Nice story, but completely irrelevant.

[fyrOM]

Prolet you are right about education…now they are teaching people basic common decency on how to use a bus…those previous politicians have a lot of stagnation to answer for.

http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=E267AD71167CF343B76E0A977927FE69

[Buktop]

They don't have a decent wage, decent health care, decent education etc... now. So it is safe to assume the capitulation was a waste of time.

And as I said Risto, it is a direct result of what happened between 1994-95. In effect, it took 10 years for the Macedonian economy to recover from this action, so right now, we are living at levels that should have been achieved in 2001. It is safe to say that the capitulation prolonged the economic impact of the embargo.

So the limit of the suffering was quite modest and not really a test of Macedonian will at all. I hate to sound negative, but there is little to be proud of other than breaking away from Yugoslavia in our recent history.

The suffering was not at all modest, as the effects of it are still felt today, and are directly related to our current precarious position.

You may be right, there may be nothing to be proud of. But I see a country that, after 20 years of blackmail, burglary and prejudice against it, has managed to survive. We are a very stubborn people, and no army, country, nation, or god has been able to wipe us from the earth.

[Buktop]

What better way is there for Buktop to continue our vassal status than to misrepresent just how much economic power Greece has over Macedonia ! Think about whose interests he is working for here.

Don't believe his bullshit.


You will have noticed that his use of the 'oil' and 'gas' figures have been intended to deceive people here about the actual power Greece has over Macedonia, economically.

Do you have economic data to back up your assertions?

Do you have any data to refute what I have posted?

Have you even read what I posted, or are you just going to make a sweeping statement and disappear from the discussion like you usually do?

Come on Pelister, cite me some facts and figures, prove me wrong...

[Pelister]

Originally Posted by Pelister
What better way is there for Buktop to continue our vassal status than to misrepresent just how much economic power Greece has over Macedonia ! Think about whose interests he is working for here.

Don't believe his bullshit.


You will have noticed that his use of the 'oil' and 'gas' figures have been intended to deceive people here about the actual power Greece has over Macedonia, economically.

Do you have economic data to back up your assertions?

Do you have any data to refute what I have posted?

Have you even read what I posted, or are you just going to make a sweeping statement and disappear from the discussion like you usually do?

Come on Pelister, cite me some facts and figures, prove me wrong...

Haha. Get a life.

You havn't proven anything, with one exception. You have demonstrated how a quirky Macedonian can work for the interests of the Greeks and very possibly not even realise he is doing it.

Your a charlatan.

You can't prove that Greece has any substantial economic power over the Macedonian Republic and you never will.

In fact in one fell swoop Rogi exposed how you operate - how you present a picture of Greek economic power where in fact it doesn't really exist - Macedonia gets its oil and gas from various sources moron, not just Greece.

If your trying to build an case for our E.U integration (in the UMD mould) and even a case as to why we should continue to negotaiate on the basis of 'Greek economic power over us', you have just been made out.

[makedonin]

They don't have a decent wage, decent health care, decent education etc... now. So it is safe to assume the capitulation was a waste of time.

That is true, can't agree more.

Still, people have much much better life now than they had than. I can tell cause I was one of those many who had to wait from 4:00 PM till 7:00 PM before the stores just to get cheaper bread cause we could not afford us to buy from the expensive one and the cheaper was not supplied enough. And we are talking about bread. The rest was just dream, something that you can't think afording it.

Today, they have true riches in comparation to what one had back than.

But that was not just fault of the embargo. Maybe it gave the blow to surfface the shit that was already there. That was just one of the long economic failures and consequences from the break up and plunder of government property under the pretext of privatization.

So while I agree that the capitulation was waste and inacceptable, I find it pity that people think that the commoners, which until yesterday were the middle class and now found them self on existencial minimum, did non suffered back then.

I have to be honest, if they have put the terms of capitulation on vote, I can't tell what the out come would have been.

[Vangelovski]

I never said we were going to starve. Please feel free to ask me a question about the Economic impact of the embargo, come on, don't just ignore it with sweeping statements, indulge me in this argument, if only this one time, I would love you to try and prove me wrong.

Nice story, but completely irrelevant.

The 'nice' story is essentially the same one you're peddling here.

I didn't specifically have you in mind when I made my comments. However, I will take you up on your offer.

What is more important for you - "bread for the people" or natural rights?

[Buktop]

Haha. Get a life.

You havn't proven anything, with one exception. You have demonstrated how a quirky Macedonian can work for the interests of the Greeks and very possibly not even realise he is doing it.

I am working for Greek interests by stating the truth about Macedonian Economic activity with Greece? I am working for Greek interests by not living in a fairytale?

Your a charlatan.

You can't prove that Greece has any substantial economic power over the Macedonian Republic and you never will.

Now here is the funny part. Because I have in fact proved it several times over...

http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/WBStorage/Files/Statistika_excel_countries_A_2009_fin2008.xls

http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/WBStorage/Files/Statistika_excel_SITC_A_2009_final20080.xls

"Some 60 percent of Macedonian trade with states outside of the
former Yugoslav area came and went through the Greek port city of
Thessalonika. This included Macedoniaþs entire oil supply."(1995) Eftov, pg. 13-14.

Not to mention the acquisition of OKTA by Hellenic Petroleum.

In fact in one fell swoop Rogi exposed how you operate - how you present a picture of Greek economic power where in fact it doesn't really exist - Macedonia gets its oil and gas from various sources moron, not just Greece.

Rogi is an intelligent and decent person who knows something about the situation. He brought up the situation that had it not been for corruption and the sanctions on Serbia, the Greek embargo would not have been as devastating. And he is right, to a degree. But the corruption was in fact caused as a result of the situation created by the two border closings, and the fact that Serbia was not as big a supplier of our Petroleum imports.

Greek economic influence on Macedonia doesn't exist? You really should not be participating in this conversation. I recommend you sit on the sidelines and learn something for once.

Read the evidence I post for you or quit responding to it. I am not going to waste my time on someone who has no intention of actually reading what I write.

[Buktop]

The 'nice' story is essentially the same one you're peddling here.

I didn't specifically have you in mind when I made my comments. However, I will take you up on your offer.

What is more important for you - "bread for the people" or natural rights?

I don't see anything about me proposing brotherhood or partnership with Greece or Serbia, nor have I said that the capitulation was a good or necessary thing. I am trying to explain to you guys just how serious an impact the embargo had on Macedonia.

It seems to me that many of you have no idea what the actual situation was at that time. Just because we in the diaspora did not feel the effects of it, doesn't mean it didn't happen, or the citizens of Macedonia weren't deeply affected.

Why don't you guys make a few phone calls to your relatives and ask them what happened, you might learn something.

[Vangelovski]

I don't see anything about me proposing brotherhood or partnership with Greece or Serbia, nor have I said that the capitulation was a good or necessary thing. I am trying to explain to you guys just how serious an impact the embargo had on Macedonia.

It seems to me that many of you have no idea what the actual situation was at that time. Just because we in the diaspora did not feel the effects of it, doesn't mean it didn't happen, or the citizens of Macedonia weren't deeply affected.

Why don't you guys make a few phone calls to your relatives and ask them what happened, you might learn something.

I thought you were going to answer my question?

[Risto the Great]

That is true, can't agree more.

Still, people have much much better life now than they had than. I can tell cause I was one of those many who had to wait from 4:00 PM till 7:00 PM before the stores just to get cheaper bread cause we could not afford us to buy from the expensive one and the cheaper was not supplied enough. And we are talking about bread. The rest was just dream, something that you can't think afording it.

Today, they have true riches in comparation to what one had back than.

But that was not just fault of the embargo. Maybe it gave the blow to surfface the shit that was already there. That was just one of the long economic failures and consequences from the break up and plunder of government property under the pretext of privatization.

So while I agree that the capitulation was waste and inacceptable, I find it pity that people think that the commoners, which until yesterday were the middle class and now found them self on existencial minimum, did non suffered back then.

I have to be honest, if they have put the terms of capitulation on vote, I can't tell what the out come would have been.

Ouch! That sounds very real. I think a vote for capitulation would have passed. The Macedonians were being strangled and would have been willing to throw away all they had for some improved economic prosperity. It has been nothing to be proud of and I am yet to see Macedonians rise as one to say "enough is enough"!

I do not wish RoMacedonians any pain but I wonder what it will take for the country to get together as one and demand justice.

[makedonin]

Ouch! That sounds very real. I think a vote for capitulation would have passed. The Macedonians were being strangled and would have been willing to throw away all they had for some improved economic prosperity.

I would not doubt that. If we honestly look at our past, Macedonians were doing worst things than that, for various reasons, money, religion etc. I recall the account from H. N. Brailsford, no matter how honest it is, it bares some truth:

I was talking to a wealthy peasant who came in from a neighbouring village to Monastir market. He spoke Greek well, but hardly like a native. "Is your village Greek," I asked him, "or Bulgarian ?" "Well," he replied, "it is Bulgarian now, but four years ago it was Greek." The answer seemed to him entirely natural and commonplace. "How," I asked in some bewilderment, "did that miracle come about ?" "Why," said he, "we are all poor men, but we want to have our own school and a priest who will look after us properly. We used to have a Greek teacher. We paid him £5 a year and his bread, while the Greek consul paid him another £5; but we had no priest of our own. We shared a priest with several other villages, but he was very unpunctual and remiss. We went to the Greek Bishop to complain, but he refused to do anything for us. The Bulgarians heard of this and they came and made us an offer. They said they would give us a priest who would live in the village and a teacher to whom we need pay nothing. Well, sir, ours is a poor village, and so of course we became Bulgarians."

I am afraid, the mentality did not change much.

It has been nothing to be proud of and I am yet to see Macedonians rise as one to say "enough is enough"!

Who knows if this will happen in our life time. Sad but true. We can still work to give future generations fundament to achieve that.

I do not wish RoMacedonians any pain but I wonder what it will take for the country to get together as one and demand justice.

Money I guess. But seriously, I think no one has the answear to that one.

I read with pains and disapointment the intern division between ideological parties, pro slavic, pro antic, pro bulgarian pro anything.

I don't see unity on any field of life, which is acctually normal for many countries, but has influence on the foreign politics only in Macedonia.

[Buktop]

I thought you were going to answer my question?

Both are equally as important, without natural rights, you are no more than an animal, without bread, you cannot survive, even as an animal.

People should not have to choose between bread or rights.