Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[indigen]

Actually, I think that wasn't your true intention with quoting Vangelovski in directing your question for me, maybe I'm wrong, but I got such impression as you tend to attach the specific doubt on me.

And asking me something like this, where I really think I was very honest and preserved clear positions during the whole time of my membership here, it's very offensive for me.

I don't think I deserve such disrespect. Even though I have no problems making it clear once again, only to satisfy your need to have me questioned,[B] I fully support this campaign[/B] and very soon I will be able to offer more concrete support with constant advertising and much more.

It is true that I have serious doubts about OXMORON (and flip-flop) political stands that you and others have taken on a number of Macedonian issues.

Is it not an OXYMORON to support the implementation of the "Interim Accord" (including the following: "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia institutes proceedings against Greece for a violation of Article 11 of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995") and at the same time claim to be in full support of the "End the Name Negotiations"!?

BTW, there is/was a lot of other people (on MTO and worldwide) who fully support/ed the ICJ case by MK Government and some are now also supporting this campaign. They also ALL need to clarify what they actually stand for!

[Vangelovski]

Indigen,

Are you asking for clarification from me?

[Pelister]

Is it safe to assume that the Greek embargo (in your mind) is the most devastating event that Macedonians have endured since secession? How much capitulation was in order given the suffering that the Macedonians endured (in your mind)?

Buktop likes to exaggerate those things that may back the case for Macedonia negotiating its identity (a case he has been making all along on this forum), just like he whorishly praises the E.U without any real inkling why it should be.

I don't think anyone should take his very vague and diffuse bullshit too seriously.

[indigen]

Indigen,

Are you asking for clarification from me?

No, I was just musing on the apparent oxymoron that is presented when one supports adherence to the IA and at the same time claiming to support the "End The Name Negotiations" campaign.

[Bratot]

It is true that I have serious doubts about OXMORON (and flip-flop) political stands that you and others have taken on a number of Macedonian issues.

Is it not an OXYMORON to support the implementation of the "Interim Accord" (including the following: "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia institutes proceedings against Greece for a violation of Article 11 of the Interim Accord of 13 September 1995") and at the same time claim to be in full support of the "End the Name Negotiations"!?

Actually,as being part of the UN is an oximoron itself while trying to cease the Interim Agreement.

We did joined UN under other name, not by our choice, but we continued to seek more and more contries to recognize us under our rightfull name within UN, something that we can use in our advance now.

The "implementation" of the IA as you see it, in a specific manner, can eliminate the blackmail to change the name as a condition for entrance in any international organization, where after we join I don't think anyone could force us or blackmail us with excluding from the organizations if we apply for re-admission in the UN under our name Macedonia and automatically ceasing the IA.

It is a solution, it's not the ultimate, it's not the best, but is a option.

I can support any other suggestion that seems more reasonable and more realistic to achieve.
As most of us I also look for the best solution and my view on this specific solution has not been cemented nor ideologically attached.

Offer yours, lets hear more, and lets draw the best of it!

[fyrOM]

This is who we need to be careful of.

PM Gruevski concerned about opposition call for accepting 'erga omnes' name

http://www.idividi.com.mk/English/Macedonia/627175/index.html

Probistip, 18 September 2010 (MIA) - Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski told reporters Saturday he was concerned about the opposition willingness to accept an 'erga omnes' name for Macedonia with geographical qualifier, which would also mean changing of the state's constitution.

- Yesterday media published the news, saying that Greece does not intend to withdraw its demand for an 'erga omnes' name, which leads to changing of the constitution. Afterwards all opposition parties told media that we should seek a way for reaching an agreement with Greece. I am really confused and worried by the idea of our opposition that advocates accepting of an 'erga omnes' name with geographical qualifier, which would also mean changing of the Constitution, Gruevski said.

[Buktop]

Well Buktop, the border with Serbia may have been 'officially' closed, but by no means was it really closed. There are 10 Macedonians (there are more, but extensive enough dossiers exist on at least 10), all involved and related to the then SDSM Government, who made tens of millions of dollars (some much more) in a very, very short period through the under the table corrupt deals in trade with Serbia, many of which involved oil, all of which caused severe and direct damage to the Macedonian economy. It is estimated that some $2B was in effect stolen and taken outside of Macedonia and the Macedonian economy by this group of people.

I am aware of the underhanded dealings not only with Serbia, but with Greece as well through shadow corporations in Bulgaria.

The embargo by Greece was only exacerbated by the corruption within the ranks of the then Macedonian Government. Oil was the only real concern, but there were alternate trading routes that were established and though the final costs of getting the oil to Macedonia were higher, it would not have done what it did to the Macedonian economy, had it not been for the corruption, plunder and theft that was rife at the time.

Without oil, energy production via thermal plants was decreased, the use of low-grade coal products was pursued at great cost to the environment and production of energy. Agricultural output was decreased, as well as the cost of production in agriculture causing prices to skyrocket, the cost of transporting goods was increased due to the shortage, and increased cost of gasoline. And since average GDP per-capita was decreased from almost $3000 US a year to a mere $350, also signifies a decrease in economic activity, a decrease in consumption, a decrease in disposable income, and a severe decrease in GDP growth from which health-care, social services, education and quality of life all decrease proportionally. And as you said, this is only exacerbated by the corruption of the government and several "oligarchs", if you will.

Now just for a little perspective: The cost to Macedonia's economy as a result of the Greek embargo, is estimated at around $700m. The UN Sanctions against Serbia, which forced Macedonia to close its' northern border, cost Macedonia about 3 times more than the Greek embargo, though truth be told, that is mainly because of the above reasons.

The estimated cost of $700m does not include the ramifications of such a prolonged period of stagnation and intentional deprivation of energy and resources, and in particular, access to the port of Solun. The ramifications of the embargo go far beyond the measure of lost trade/production, but extends to the future potential, as well as capabilities that were lost in the exchange. I am not trying to diminish the effect that the Serbian sanctions had on us, but I am also saying that Greece being one of our top 5 trading partners, controlling over 60% of our oil/gas supply, and controlling our primary trading route (Solun), had major effects as well.

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:MKD&dl=en&hl=en&q=macedonian+gdp

The combined effects of the embargo and the sanctions on Serbia have resulted in nearly 10 years of economic stagnation in Macedonia, it has only been the past 6 years that we have really recovered our potential for growth, and I would say that the actual cost of the embargo was a bit higher than $700m.

Also, I believe in the above quote, 'one-sided' means the border was closed by Greece, but Macedonia did not do the same, the Macedonian border was still open in that Greece could still trade with other nations and have Macedonia as a transit nation, it just would not sell or buy to and from Macedonia.

It has nothing to do with whether or not it's a transit nation, a blockade is a blockade. Trade between both sides stops completely, so technically you cannot have a one-sided embargo...

Greeks tried to force the issue by imposing a full trade blockade on Macedonia on 16 February 1994.

Type of Measure: Import Ban [IMBAN]

This is not simply the banning of one product from import or
export, but covers all goods traded in both directions. All
official trade with the Republic of Macedonia has been cut off if
it comes through Greece.

American University case study on the effects of the blockade on Macedonia's economy

http://www1.american.edu/TED/macedon.htm

I have posted this several times, I seriously doubt anyone has bothered to read it.

[Buktop]

Is it safe to assume that the Greek embargo (in your mind) is the most devastating event that Macedonians have endured since secession? How much capitulation was in order given the suffering that the Macedonians endured (in your mind)?

Actually yes, if it wasn't for the embargo, not only would the Macedonians still have their name and flag, but they would have had a decent life, a decent wage, decent health care, decent education etc... Do you not see that the Embargo is the cause of the capitulation?

And I would like to clarify that I do not condone or justify the signing of the interim accord to end the embargo, I am merely stating the obvious here.

[Buktop]

Buktop likes to exaggerate those things that may back the case for Macedonia negotiating its identity (a case he has been making all along on this forum), just like he whorishly praises the E.U without any real inkling why it should be.

I don't think anyone should take his very vague and diffuse bullshit too seriously.

Listen here sonny, the grown ups are trying to have a conversation, try not to interrupt.

[Prolet]

Buktop, Rogi is right, our oil came via Romania and Bulgaria when there was a Greek Embargo. Serbia got the majority of its oil from Russia via Romania in the Black Sea. SDSM Deputy Leader Zoran Zaev made a fortune from all this, not only that but from Cigarette sales too.

[Vangelovski]

The fallacious choice between freedom and avoiding starvation. This has got to be the con of the century.

I remember one man (a Macedonian - if you could call him one) in the early 90's attempting to justify his opposition to Macedonian independence by claiming Macedonians would starve because they did not have a pork industry. According to him, pork was imported from Serbia at the time and we needed our "brothers" for survival.

His argument was quite idiotic, but worse, it was a sad display of the lengths that people will go to - even at their own humiliating expense - to resist Macedonians exercising their natural rights.

[Risto the Great]

Actually yes, if it wasn't for the embargo, not only would the Macedonians still have their name and flag, but they would have had a decent life, a decent wage, decent health care, decent education etc... Do you not see that the Embargo is the cause of the capitulation?

They don't have a decent wage, decent health care, decent education etc... now. So it is safe to assume the capitulation was a waste of time.

So the limit of the suffering was quite modest and not really a test of Macedonian will at all. I hate to sound negative, but there is little to be proud of other than breaking away from Yugoslavia in our recent history.

[Pelister]

What are the 'pros' to the Intermim Accord, Buktop?

[Prolet]

Buktop, I disagree with that statement, look at Croatia for example they have a better life and higher wages but they owe 45 billion euros in foreign debt which means they are not free at all. Risto is right, capitulation is simply not worth it and we are controlled by fear and manipulation. I still think that SDSM did so much damage to our country that it will take even more years just for us to be functioning as a normal country.

Even if there was no embargo with an incompetent SDSM party lead by the biggest criminals at the time, our country would still be the same today with that negative style of leading. You cant have communists who ruled our country on the back of the peoples hard work, leading a new democratic regime with the same old communist style it was never going to work whichever way you looked at it.

Buktop, Look at where we are today, we are forced to rebuild and renovate hospitals and health clinics from scratch, we are forced to build new roads and freeways,new rail line,new energy plants and factories this not only costs billions of euros it takes alot of time and effort. We didnt even have a sports hall up until recently we had an old stadium where we could barely host an international football match, its sad that in this day and age 2010 we have to build just to have the basic things that any normal country has. Do you realize that our citizens ride on buses that are over 50 years old? With no heating,Air Conditioning nothing, for the first time in many decades we are getting new buses from Ukraine and China.

[Pelister]

Buktop, Rogi is right, our oil came via Romania and Bulgaria when there was a Greek Embargo. Serbia got the majority of its oil from Russia via Romania in the Black Sea. SDSM Deputy Leader Zoran Zaev made a fortune from all this, not only that but from Cigarette sales too.

Prolet, Buktop is making it up as he goes along.

He is trying to convince you that 'we have no choice' that we 'have to negotiate' or that 'our hands are tied' because of the supposed economic power that Greece has over us. In many ways he is defending Greek political interests here, by doing so.

What better way is there for Buktop to continue our vassal status than to misrepresent just how much economic power Greece has over Macedonia ! Think about whose interests he is working for here.

Don't believe his bullshit.

There has been an economic blockade of the country for 15 years now. I have an Uncle in Shtip who owns a small clothing factory. He stopped sending hats to Greece 15 years ago. His NEW MARKET is in Russia, and has never looked back.

Our growth story over the last 5 years or so, has nothing to do with Greece, but rather with regional powers such as Turkey, Slovenia, Roumania and the Ukraine opening factories in Macedonia and investing heavily in the little country.

You will have noticed that his use of the 'oil' and 'gas' figures have been intended to deceive people here about the actual power Greece has over Macedonia, economically.