Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[indigen]

.. or ask some Greek friend from Australia!
Hey, I'm only tryin to help

I am aware of that B. but I think we have a solo artist here. :-)

If it is an organised connection, they could play havoc on any given forum!

[fyrOM]

Indigen
Wow…you really are making too much of this.

Cyrillic characters
Probably you are right that Vista has the Cyrillic characters. Why would I want to use them if my keyboard is roman charters. To make it harder for myself with some overlay which wont fit my laptop properly or use those stick-on labels. Is it really worth my while just so I can write in Cyrillic which I am heaps slower in reading and writing. Unlike some I have no formal education in Macedonian and just out of my own interest I taught myself from a book so that I am not totally ignorant even though I have no other practical use for it.

Google translate
I do not use the Google translate you can find on their web site. I have a Google translate button on the toolbar which when clicked will auto detect the language on screen and translate it as well as follow from one link to another and automatically translate every page I log to. I used to practice my Macedonian reading skills by reading Macedonian online newspapers but since discovering this toolbar I have become slack as I read much faster in English and don’t want to spend ages reading just one article. Albeit as mentioned in my previous post which you are quoting an MTO member picked up that Google translate does occasionally makes errors.

Secure server services
HERE WE HAVE THE PROOF THAT YOU KNOW WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT AND THAT YOU ARE LYING!!! I would like to know what this "secure server service" is that you have on a personal computer that would hide your IP address!!! It certainly is NOT obtainable via "high security" settings on your browser!

You must have felt really chuffed when you wrote this.

From what I have read on the internet secure server services are just as the word implies a service you subscribe to with an annual fee. You then logon to their server so you IP is known to them but then you surf the net from their server so your IP points to them and not you. As there server could be in a different country you could appear to be logged onto the net from that country instead of where you really are. As mentioned they are a subscription service and seriously not worth the money just to fool you. It is not some program running on my computer or browser settings. I think there are programs that can detect IP addresses logging to your server. I don’t know if the admits of MTO are doing this. You will need to ask them. I do know I am armed to the back teeth so to speak of firewall and antiviral software ie not just one because as mention I had viral problems in the past and it cost me a lot of time and some lost data which is probably more valuable. Like I said if the admins cannot see my IP then I can only guess that it is the firewall and antiviral software. If not I don’t know why they cant and really I cannot be bothered to prove it to anyone.

Going to an internet café
Are you serious. You are insane if you think I am going to leave a perfectly good computer at home with an internet connection that I am paying for where I can be perfectly comfortable and make myself a decent Turkish style coffee so that I can drive to an internet café wasting petrol and paying 4 or 5 dollars an hour to sit in an uncomfortable chair with no decent coffee just so you can be satisfied I am from Australia.hahahahahahahahaha

Quotes from admits and others.
You really have been creating a dossier on me haven’t you. To smart by half Indigen. Do you realise this is the second time I have said this to you just tonight. Second one in a different thread. If you are going to research something then do it properly or shut up you idiot. Did you look at what preceded and followed those quotes or do you just take things out of context and pass judgement. You are an idiot.

From memory the first quote from RTG relates to his opinion that Australian Macedonians think the same way and my differing opinion was strange to him and he had a mini dig that I was not behaving like other Australian Macedonians. Hardly proof at all of anything other than just for a wild thought I don’t have exactly the same thoughts as other Macedonians from Australia.

In a similar line of though SoM was showing his displeasure at my preceding post where I was commenting on Gruevskis statement that he was aware of the add campaign by the diaspora to stop all name negotiations and that he was going to ignore the diasporas’ demands to which I said Oh well so much for the add campaign. Is it really so hard to accept that NOT every Macedonian in Australia thinks exactly the same.

Now that we have wasted enough space on not proving anything one way or another can we get back to the topic.

[fyrOM]

You know the funny think is if I just copied and pasted the original English text you probably would not have said anything but because I bothered to make a Macedonian translation via Google you jump at me. Such a small thing as using Google translate which everyone does to post in the English forums does not warrant the degree of the response it receive. What it does say is a precondition like a loaded spring just waiting for the slightest reason to go off. What was the reason for that precondition is the mystery. Any idea.

[fyrOM]

Abe Bratot I Indigen kako da ne se zafrkava cojek so vas koka olku si go barate.

Ke me nateras da se naucam grcki pa da ti kazam kako se zboruva po nase. Samo za zal ke me nateras da se naviknuvam da piam grcko kafe pribidejki bez toa ne se uci grcki pravilno. Tolku sum lubomoren za mojeto Tursko kafe ke treba da napravam tro chiting.hahaha

porano mojte rodnini vo makedonia mi se smeje za vakvi ozimak sborovi ama kako sto pocna rabotava jas izpadnav po naproxen od nim vo nasevo nov makedonski jazik. Za letoto od 2003 godina Kozmofon pocna da raboti za prv pat. Toa go citav vo vest vesnikot so napisanoto Od utre noviot mobilen operator kozmofon startuva da raboti… odma si rekov what the f. mene mi se smejat za fensot karot ama sega ovie startuvaat so vakvi zborovi. I toa e prikaznata kako jas stanav trendi vo zboruvajne makedonski.

Oh Bratot and Indigen how can someone not make fun of you when you are asking for it this much.

You are going to make me learn Greek so I can show you how to speak our language. But sadly you are going to force me to get used to drinking Greek coffee because without it you cannot learn Greek correctly. I am that jealous of my Turkish style coffee I am going to make a bit of cheating.

Earlier my relatives in Macedonia would laugh at me for these ozimak words but how things how things have begun I turned out more advanced than them in our new Macedonian language. In the summer of 2003 Kozmofon began to operate for the first time. I read this in the Vest newspaper with the text From tomorrow the new mobile operator Kozmofon STARTUVA to work… immediately I said to myself what the f. they laugh at me for fensot karot but now these people are beginning with these kinds of words. And that is the story how I became trendy in speaking Macedonian.

Ω Bratot και Indigen πως δεν μπορεί κάποιος να κάνει πλάκα με εσάς, όταν το ζητήσει αυτό το πολύ.

Θα έχετε την ευκαιρία να με κάνει να μάθουν ελληνικά ώστε να μπορώ να σας δείξει πώς να μιλήσουν τη γλώσσα μας. Αλλά, δυστυχώς, θα έχετε την ευκαιρία να με αναγκάσει να συνηθίσουν στο πόσιμο ελληνικό καφέ, επειδή χωρίς αυτό δεν μπορείς να μάθουν ελληνικά σωστά. Είμαι ότι ζήλευε τούρκικο καφέ στυλ μου εγώ είμαι πρόκειται να κάνει ένα κομμάτι της εξαπάτησης.

Προηγούμενα συγγενείς μου στη Μακεδονία θα γελούν μαζί μου για αυτές τις λέξεις ozimak αλλά το πώς τα πράγματα πως τα πράγματα έχουν αρχίσει να μου αποδείχθηκε πιο προχωρημένα από τους νέους σλαβομακεδονική γλώσσα μας. Το καλοκαίρι του 2003 Kozmofon άρχισε να λειτουργεί για πρώτη φορά. Διάβασα αυτό στην εφημερίδα Vest με το κείμενο Από αύριο η νέα εταιρεία κινητής τηλεφωνίας Kozmofon STARTUVA να εργαστούν αμέσως ... Είπα στον εαυτό μου τι στ. γελάνε μαζί μου για fensot karot αλλά τώρα αυτοί οι άνθρωποι αρχίζουν με αυτά τα είδη των λέξεων. Και αυτή είναι η ιστορία πώς έγινα trendy στην ομιλία Σλαβομακεδονικά.

[fyrOM]

Izvini RTG me nateraa da go izpoganam sajtot so grcki sborovi but I think you can see the funny side of it.

[indigen]

OziMak, brilliant post!!! Loved every word.

VASSAL ideological glue reveals two sides of same anti-Macedonian coin!

[indigen]

Now that it has been clearly established that withdrawal from the Interim Accord will cause no damage whatsoever to Macedonia's UN Membership, albeit with the temporary name reference remaining until Macedonia's second move to rectify this.

It is time to put a complete spanner in the works

I'm doing this, to play the devil's advocate and purely so that we can get more arguments out into the open - which in turn helps us really analyse all potential outcomes and scenarios.

The following may be a near impossible scenario, or the most unlikely; if it were not Greece we were talking about.

Could Greece pretend to interpret Macedonia's withdrawal from the Interim Accord, and Macedonia notifying the UN of it's name change to the Republic of Macedonia, as a provocation so much so that Greece declares war on the Republic of Macedonia - a fake war, done for the purpose of Greece being able to implement a 'War Tax' on its' citizens, in order to raise the billions it needs to save itself from the weight of it's debts? Is that an unrealistic far-fetched scenario, even for an illogical and unreasonable Greece?

Do you still hold this position and how does that factor in with support for IMMEDIATE ENDING OF "NAME NEGOTIATIONS"?

Secondly, I don't think that Macedonia has joined (applied to join) the UN under a different name other than its rightful and official one but has only agreed to extra conditions in accepting the TR. It is the IA that places conditions on using only the TR for international organisations that HR is also a member of and where it will object to use of our rightful and historic name - Macedonia.

[indigen]

my head is sore.

I say, lets empower RoM to declare the IA null and void

How can the UN suspend Macedonia from declaring sovereignty? Under MMMMMMM for Macedonia?

And if they do, surely there would be loopholes and laws where we can cry foul and discrimination?

And so bloody hell what if we are not part of the UN

Am so over other countries dangling carrots before the scared bunny.

Let the bunny grow some balls I say.

Am over it. the UN, EU and NATO can jump in the bloody lake and take Grease down with them

Right on the money, Julia!

[indigen]

Bratot,

I've posted my view over and over again:

DECLARE THE INTERIM ACCORD 'NULL AND VOID' AND REVERSE ITS IMPLEMENTATION.

You have been supporting a SECOND international name throughout this thread, arguing we should join international organisations as FYROM.

I have consistently repeated this:

DECLARE THE INTERIM ACCORD 'NULL AND VOID' AND REVERSE ITS IMPLEMENTATION.

I'll repeat it again for you:

DECLARE THE INTERIM ACCORD 'NULL AND VOID' AND REVERSE ITS IMPLEMENTATION.

Here's YOUR Gligorovist arguments again:

Originally Posted by Bratot
After we become members in NATO and after we succeed prevailing within (again the ex. with Turkey) we can more justiciable withdraw the IA and stay members in NATO, which will better our diplomatic position in whole and our international relations if we decide to surpass the resolution for re-admission of our country under the Constitutional name.

In the current position we are basically defenceless in every meaning and we can easily be a subject of worse scenarios.

I'm not equating Macedonia with Serbia in their policies, I'm only suggesting nothing is exaggerated when it comes to the repercussions. We wont be bombed for sure but we are so much vulnerable at this moment that we can be forced into another scenario of Ramkoven.

That will surely lead into worsen development of the situation in the country and yes, than the wet dream of Greece as I already cited Samaras will come true.

I am curious to know what is B.'s current position vis-a-vis "END THE NAME NEGOTIATIONS" campaign!?

[Risto the Great]

Its amazing how the Palestinians in Gaza can withhold a four year embargo, completley sealed off on all borders and at sea, going without basic food supplies, medicine and electricity in order to resist their oppressors, yet an entire generation of Macedonians were devastated by the (one-sided) Greek embargo while having complete access to the worlds markets through its other neighbours.

Can anyone please tell me the most prominent examples of suffering that Macedonians in Macedonia have endured since seceding from Yugoslavia?

[fyrOM]

If we can move on...I like this thread because it looks at an interesting question

What if RoM is recognised by her name. It is what you have wanted isn’t it so then what’s next.

How do you see the occupied parts and the identity of the Macedonians there effected by RoM and the Macedonian identity being fully recognised.

[Buktop]

Can anyone please tell me the most prominent examples of suffering that Macedonians in Macedonia have endured since seceding from Yugoslavia?

Are you serious?

You are even quoting Vangelovski's post where he claims it was a "One sided" Greek embargo?

Please Risto, I had hoped you did a little more research on the subject than that...

[Rogi]

Well Buktop, the border with Serbia may have been 'officially' closed, but by no means was it really closed. There are 10 Macedonians (there are more, but extensive enough dossiers exist on at least 10), all involved and related to the then SDSM Government, who made tens of millions of dollars (some much more) in a very, very short period through the under the table corrupt deals in trade with Serbia, many of which involved oil, all of which caused severe and direct damage to the Macedonian economy. It is estimated that some $2B was in effect stolen and taken outside of Macedonia and the Macedonian economy by this group of people.

The embargo by Greece was only exacerbated by the corruption within the ranks of the then Macedonian Government. Oil was the only real concern, but there were alternate trading routes that were established and though the final costs of getting the oil to Macedonia were higher, it would not have done what it did to the Macedonian economy, had it not been for the corruption, plunder and theft that was rife at the time.


Now just for a little perspective: The cost to Macedonia's economy as a result of the Greek embargo, is estimated at around $700m. The UN Sanctions against Serbia, which forced Macedonia to close its' northern border, cost Macedonia about 3 times more than the Greek embargo, though truth be told, that is mainly because of the above reasons.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-20000643.html

Also, I believe in the above quote, 'one-sided' means the border was closed by Greece, but Macedonia did not do the same, the Macedonian border was still open in that Greece could still trade with other nations and have Macedonia as a transit nation, it just would not sell or buy to and from Macedonia.

[Bratot]

Actually, I think that wasn't your true intention with quoting Vangelovski in directing your question for me, maybe I'm wrong, but I got such impression as you tend to attach the specific doubt on me.

And asking me something like this, where I really think I was very honest and preserved clear positions during the whole time of my membership here, it's very offensive for me.

I don't think I deserve such disrespect. Even though I have no problems making it clear once again, only to satisfy your need to have me questioned, I fully support this campaign and very soon I will be able to offer more concrete support with constant advertising and much more.

[Risto the Great]

Are you serious?

You are even quoting Vangelovski's post where he claims it was a "One sided" Greek embargo?

Please Risto, I had hoped you did a little more research on the subject than that...

Is it safe to assume that the Greek embargo (in your mind) is the most devastating event that Macedonians have endured since secession? How much capitulation was in order given the suffering that the Macedonians endured (in your mind)?