Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[fyrOM]

This is a good article. The more people who know of the injustices of the eu the greater the chance some minds might change. But also Macedonians should consider the possibility of not being in the eu at all if that’s what it takes.

[Makedonetz]

Those who want to change our name are what Goce Delcev mentioned all along.

"The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"

[Pelister]

Greece is interested in only one thing. The political extermination of the Macedonian Republic. Thats what the negotiations are for, as I have said before. Obviously the Hellenic Republic can't invade Macedonia and it can't attack it militarily. The only thing it can do is get the Macedonians to commit political suicide, by first negotiating, and second, by putting it to a vote. In many ways the Macedonians have been deceived by their own greed, and by their own sense of insecurity.

The Macedonian leadership really need to realise something else. There has been a battle going on over the last century between two international principles, one, the principle of self determination or rights for people to chose who they want to govern them; and two, the right of conquest, or the principle of effective occupation which states that nations have the right to new territory 'won' in war. The battle between these two principles over supremacy in international law, has been brought to light through institutions such as the League of Nations, the United Nations, the E.U, NATO and others. What is evident is that the colonial legacy or the 'right of conquest' is dominating the global political scene. In fact the colonial legacy in this key region of the world is so amazingly dominant that it has convinced the Macedonians that putting the question of their political extinction to a vote is in fact an exercise in the princiople of self determination. It shows that even noble principles can be used in the ruthless suppression and oppression of people, and even their political extermination. What can be 'done', can be 'undone' by the same people, is the dream and the hope of our enemies.

The Macedonians need to realise that the status of its State and nation is secure, and that its status cannot be seriously threatened by anyone now.

The real issue behind the scenes is the issue of 'guilt' of accountability, but most of all of legal title. There are a number of critical problems with Greek title to Macedonian territory, in international law. The international community, is also aware of it.

The recognition or non-recognition of a Macedonian minority under Greek rule, is at the center of a storm, which could open a can of worms for Europe. Recognition and non-recognition is about 'title'. Who has it? Who had it? How was it taken away from one, and how did the other get it? As the original inhabitants of the territory, do the Macedonians have proper legal title to lost territory, because of the circumstances surrounding the events in 1913, and since then? Or, do the New Greeks have legal title, by of the principle of effective occupation, or right of conquest?

In this context, which side is Europe on? The Macedonina leader ought to have realised by now that they are under attack from European bureacracies (including the Greek Nation) that have had centuries to build themselves up around the acquisition of foriegn territory, and the conquest of a people.

But we have moral rights, and moral law on our side.

Fk the E.U, fk Greece.

[fyrOM]

You have summed it up well Pelister. The eu nations do have their own conquered bits with original inhabitants which might get ideas if we succeed but we are starting from even further behind them and that’s one of the things that makes us scary.

In question is are we the original inhabitants or are we some people who have just been here a long time. Even how long is in question as I a sure you have heard accusations we became Macedonians in Titos Yugoslavia for his political interest. Imagine now if someone from this far behind succeeds and the minorities in the eu countries are already seen as establish ethnic identities. This is a scary scenario for the eu. With the open borders of the eu such minorities might just say why do we need to be governed by Spain or France ect which would directly affect taxation revenue.

The second scary thing out of a win for RoM as Macedonians and not Northern or something it instantly allows all Macedonians in the occupied parts to put their hand up and say me too. Even if egej did not break from Greece could you imagine the Greek parliament now made up of Greeks and many minorities. Inequities both legal and social would have to begin to erode as would also be the case in the other two occupied parts.

Even if RoM are saying they do not have aspirations on their neighbours land the domino effect could be devastating especially if you also take into consideration the Macedonians with old titles wanting their land back. To top it off many in the eu have said RoM is advanced enough to enter the eu. Having established themselves as Macedonians entry to the eu would be almost instant. These two things would open the path for many Macedonians in the diaspora who have accumulated wealth and business experience to invest in egej by themselves or in cooperation with Macedonians from the other parts of Macedonia in effect serving to unify Macedonia in a borderless eu.

This is scary enough without taking the extremely long term view that if Macedonians invest in this semi united borderless Macedonia and buy from each other and expand their land holdings over time could you imagine becoming not only the majority population in these parts but also majority land owners. Demands for semi autonomy could be made. Further still could they not just say lets form a referendum for uniting. If they let the flood gates open the process will be on its way. Anything they do to stem the flow will only lengthen the time. The only way to stop it is to make the Macedonians in RoM to be some other creature eg Northern ect. Then the minorities in the occupied parts have no leg to stand on.

This is not pie in the sky or vapor with no substance because given the right environment even vapour can solidify for you to walk on. This is the scary part. The natural advantages Macedonia has both geographic and climate are still there. Geographically we are still a stones throw from Europe and Asia. China has already said they want to invest technology industries in RoM if they became part of he eu. I
Isn’t Macedonia ideally positioned as a transport hub for both west and middle east Russia and Africa.. Egej has great tourist locations and abundance of rich agricultural land. Food production is going to become an even more important commodity and increase in value as the worlds population grows. Think of the revenues from these streams alone and they are by no means the limit of Macedonia’s potential. Macedonians have grown up in the western world and have money and business knowledge to invest in Macedonia. The only limiting factor has been what they have been allowed to do. All of this hangs on establishing a Macedonian identity. It so happens RoM is the most free of all the parts and has the greatest chance of establishing a Macedonian identity. This is why Greece and her supporters are going strong against RoM.

One of the reasons for creating Greece and extending Greece over Macedonia was to safeguard the west’s greatest asset the Suez canal and thwarting the Slavic communist hordes or the Muslim world. Today RoM is an ally of the west and actively if not legitimately part of nato. This and the good governance shown in RoM has shown Macedonia can be a good partner to the west and consequently diminishes the value of Greece. Only if the west was able to see this in the past history would have been totally different. This realisation today may change minds in Europe to accept Macedonia by her rightful name. This could unleash the process described above.

The question they have is although it will still be good for the west do they want to deal with the process when maybe RoM will give in and the land and people of Macedonia are still in the hands of the west without having to deal with the process. I think the west are assessing which scenario will be for their best overall benefit. Remember the article where the first us negotiator is now saying RoM should not concede one point to Greece.

They know it will be good and I dare say better for the west if they allow Macedonians to establish the recognition of their identity. Why. Because a happy local population will work harder and better and if you benefit from this work then you get more. Also the investment from the diaspora is hampered by the difficulties placed by Greece. Low investment lower benefits for the west. They are realising Macedonia as a strong ally of the west makes economic political and strategic sense. I think they are waiting to see can they get the benefits without having to do it and can they invest their fingers in this emerging yummy pie. Eg ecm power to the Austrians and telecom to the Germans ect. The question of our identity cannot go on forever. The west are risking conflict and or stifled investment in Macedonia and the west’s revenue streams from there. It is a case of wait it out if RoM will buckle in a short enough time.

The eus reasons are one thing Greece’s reasons involve not only economics but pride and stubbornness and the latter two points are just as hard to shift as the first. Greece is economically down and the eu is bleeding to support her. This is why I have said in the past that this is a historical opportunity Macedonians should not miss. Imagine Greece doesn’t get revenue from tourism then it will be a longer and deeper bleeding of the eu. Have you noticed the adds on Australian TV for the getaway special promoting a Greek holiday. Coincidence. The sinking of Greece will hasten the eu to tell Greece to grow up quit your wining and accept there is a lot of evidence the Macedonians are THE Macedonians as is let alone if they find something in the archaeological digs and everything being done now ends up being a waste of time and money.

Can we make people not go to Greece. Maybe our own letters to the editor or radio talk back particularly on the dirty Greece has done on the west just might make westerners resent going there. In any event I would enjoy seeing Greece squirm.

[TrueMacedonian]

Greece is interested in only one thing. The political extermination of the Macedonian Republic. Thats what the negotiations are for, as I have said before. Obviously the Hellenic Republic can't invade Macedonia and it can't attack it militarily. The only thing it can do is get the Macedonians to commit political suicide, by first negotiating, and second, by putting it to a vote. In many ways the Macedonians have been deceived by their own greed, and by their own sense of insecurity.

This is truly stated Pelister.

Ireneusz A. Slupkov wrote a good book I recommend everyone reading (there are some histroical mistakes but its otherwise good) http://books.google.com/books?id=VUM...ed=0CCUQ6AEwAA

[Bratot]

I met Ireneusz few months ago and he made very positive impression to me, unfortunatelly we have few people like him who preserved the clear reasoning and faith of Macedonian cause.

In another occassion I will introduce Ireneusz to this forum, I hope he will find the time to share his opinion and personally posts some of his articles, so far they were published in polish only, but I hope that will change.

Here is his blog:

http://www.macedonia.salon24.pl/

[Birowsky]

Постојат правни лекови за нашата болест

Моево правно средство, што детално го образложив е најсоодветно за оваа ситуација и во висок процент ја респектира реалноста. Тужбата за ништавност не е ни храбро, ни кукавичко дејствие. Тоа е средство со кое што се отстрануваат од правниот промет правни дела што не смеат да постојат, што значи дека ова дејствие е во интерес на НАТО и ЕУ. Ако е во интерес, тогаш не може да биде сфатен како непријателски акт. Грција, се разбира, ќе го доживее како непријателски акт, бидејќи со прогласување на Привремената спогодба за ништавна, Грција ги губи сите придобивки од неа. Македонија не мора да преговара за името. Македонија врз основа на поволна пресуда на Меѓународниот суд на правдата мора да биде примена под името Република Македонија. Македонија може да ги врати во Уставот нормите за грижа за своето малцинство надвор од Македонија. Македонија може да си го врати старото знаме.

Автор: Марјан Попески

Дали случајот помеѓу Македонија и Грција правно е меѓународен спор?! | Марјан Попески

[Bill77]

Quote: "Macedonia on the basis of a favorable ruling by the International Court of Justice must be admitted under the name Republic of Macedonia".

A) it remains questionable what power this "International Court of Justice" has to implement their ruling.

B) This Interim Accord states that ROM shall enter institutions Under the name "fyrom".

This statement above, that "Macedonian must be admitted under the name Republic of Macedonia"
Is this a personal opinion, or is it something official or law.

[Birowsky]

А) Основно: Меѓународниот суд на правдата не ги извршува своите пресуди, Советот за безбедност го прави тоа. Користејќи и воена сила ако е потребно. Од тука, дали од околу 150те пресуди од Меѓународниот суд на правдата си чул за некоја која не е извршена.

B) Точно. Но Г-дин Попески во својот фељтон, користејќи правен силогизам докажува ништавност на Привремената спогодба, од што следи дека немаме никаква обврска према нашиот јужен сосед. Нити за да преговараме, а уште позанимливо, можеме и знамето да си го вратиме.

Еве ги линковите од неговиот фељтон за СТРАТЕГИЈА ЗА ЗАЧУВУВАЊЕ НА ИМЕТО, па ако стварно мислиш дека имаш аргументи, испробај се кај Марјан:
-Дали случајот помеѓу Македонија и Грција правно е меѓународен спор?!
-Зошто Европа ја поддржува грчката неправда кон Македонија?
-Има правни лекови за нашата болест
-Привремената спогодба е неправда за Македонија
-Сојузот со САД – причина што Грција не го користи правото на војна
-Пресудата на Меѓународниот суд на правда ќе биде како светилник

[Bratot]

А) Основно: Меѓународниот суд на правдата не ги извршува своите пресуди, Советот за безбедност го прави тоа. Користејќи и воена сила ако е потребно. Од тука, дали од околу 150те пресуди од Меѓународниот суд на правдата си чул за некоја која не е извршена.

Јурисдикција на МСП:

*
Jurisdiction

The International Court of Justice acts as a world court. The Court has a dual jurisdiction : it decides, in accordance with international law, disputes of a legal nature that are submitted to it by States (jurisdiction in contentious cases); and it gives advisory opinions on legal questions at the request of the organs of the United Nations or specialized agencies authorized to make such a request (advisory jurisdiction)."

Contentious Jurisdiction

In the exercise of its jurisdiction in contentious cases, the International Court of Justice has to decide, in accordance with international law, disputes of a legal nature that are submitted to it by States. An international legal dispute can be defined as a disagreement on a question of law or fact, a conflict, a clash of legal views or of interests.

Дали си чул друг пример апликацијата на една земја да биде своеволно деноминирана и условена со дополнителни критериуми за влез и дополнителни за исполнување откако ќе влезе како деноминирана страна, иако апликацијата била на име на Р. Македонија?

B) Точно. Но Г-дин Попески во својот фељтон, користејќи правен силогизам докажува ништавност на Привремената спогодба, од што следи дека немаме никаква обврска према нашиот јужен сосед. Нити за да преговараме, а уште позанимливо, можеме и знамето да си го вратиме.

Тоа е убава работа, но има и многу повеќе аргументи за брзо затварање на ова апсурдно прашање и зачувување на името и суверенитетот.

На оваа тема(клик на истата):

Macedonian Think tank!


Па доколку Попески чувствува потреба да придонесе за развивање на една општа дискусија, го покануваме на овој форум, наместо да го да се обидуваме да водиме дискусија на две места.

Мислам дека Попески е човек кој има што да каже во однос на овие теми и би било многу корисно доколку покренеме заедничка иницијатива во однос на Стратегијата, откако првин ќе се усогласиме и синхронизираме сите заедно.

Многу повеќе можеме да постигнеме кога сме здружени отколку индивидуално, се надевам господинот Попески ќе ни ја даде таа чест.

Поздрав,
Михаил

[Makedonska_Kafana]

United Macedonians Call to End Name Negotiations

United Macedonians Organization of Canada Supports Call to End Name Negotiations.

http://www.mhrmi.org/news/2010/august30_e.asp

[Risto the Great]

I was hoping the United Macedonians would have more input on this forum. They stopped by for a while and it was a refreshing but brief visit if I recall correctly. Naturally, we ask all Macedonian organisations to comment on the Macedonian Cause and to identify any issues they cannot accept. If they cannot accept any of the principles espoused in the Macedonian Cause, they are not worthy of collaborating with. And we like to help organisations who embrace the Macedonian Cause.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

RTG, the call to end name talks was a real wakeup call for all Macedonian organizations and to be on top of the things which matter the most to us in Diaspora countries.

[Pelister]

It was a wake up call Mak_kafana. I hope that it continues and more human resrouces and more money comes pouring in to sustain it.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

It was a wake up call Mak_kafana. I hope that it continues and more human resrouces and more money comes pouring in to sustain it.

Hi P.

If MHRMI/AMHRC play their cards right they can really throw a monkey wrench into anything the UMD might try to repair the damages in diaspora. Sadly, they and their groupies think everything is just peachy and it's business as usual .. not.

I would hope to see another press conference soon with an update.