Greek logic

[toothpaste]

If those Atenians and "Greek" Macedonians could comunicate speaks nothing of the Language of the Macedonians, since most of the Macedonians spoke Attik. What kind of a prove is that? none.

second:

In the original of which only few sentences are reserved, there is nothing said about Athenian and Macedonian but rather:



as you see it is not clear who is talking to this athenian, it is the others

It is very speculative to say that some Macedonians are talking to the guy.


And as you see, sphursena is common fish, no real Macedonian word.


so what remained in modern greek for the fish is no Macedonian word, but common greek word for fish.

The Comedy is called MAKEDONES (=MACEDONIANS) ,ws written by an Athenian,and a guy is talking with an Athenian...

Um he is probably a Martian.

Also ..what is "sphursena" and "sphurvena"?

In the text is only ΣΦΥΡΑΙΝΑ (σφύραινα ,sphyraina)

[makedonin]

Back to Hesychius

please be kind and tell me which Greek words are this one from the Kelts:

[makedonin]

[B]


(Athenian)-What is "sphyraina" then?
(Macedonian)-It is what you,Attics call "kestra".

If those Atenians and "Greek" Macedonians could comunicate speaks nothing of the Language of the Macedonians, since most of the Macedonians spoke Attik or Koine. What kind of a prove is that? none.

second:

In the original of which only few sentences are preserved, there is nothing said about Athenian and Macedonian but rather:

Accordingly, Strattis, in his Macedonians, when
some Athenian asks the question, as being ignorant of the
name, and saying,
But what is the sphurvena ?
The other replies,
You, 0 Athenians, do call it the cestra.

And Antiphanes, in his Euthydicus, says-
A. The sphursena is a common fish.
B. You should say cestra, in strict Attic Greek.

Athenaeus of Naucratis / The deipnosophists, or, Banquet of the learned of Athenæus volume I
Book VII, pp. 433-521 ff.

as you see it is not clear who is talking to this athenian, it is the others

It is very speculative to say that some Macedonians are talking to the guy.


And as you see, sphursena is common fish, no real Macedonian word.


so what remained in modern greek for the fish is no Macedonian word, but common greek word for fish.

[toothpaste]

"I know too, of many Attic writers who use idioms of the Macedonians as a result of intercourse with them.”( Athenaeus .. Deipnosophistae, III. 121-122)

Is an IDIOM a foreign word or phrase..??

Also..
are you aware of the comedy "Makedones" of the Athenian Comedian Strattis?
Only 2 verses of it survived..but they are really interesting.

So in that two guys are talking,the Athenian with the Macedonian..

-Η σφύραινα δ’ έστι τις;
-Κέστραν μεν ύμμες ωττικοί κικλήσκετε

(Athenian)-What is "sphyraina" then?
(Macedonian)-It is what you,Attics call "kestra".

So,obviously these two communicate in the same language,and the big city guy from Athens,is making fun of the lad redneck from Macedonia,since the only difference they have is one name.
A name of a fish!
kestra=sphyraina=grouper



But even for this..whats the etymology of this word..?
(In Greek )sphyra=hammer ,-aina=female ending (like lyk-os(wolf) lyk-aina (female wolf)

The most surprising though is that the name that survived and is still used in greek today ,for the same fish is the macedonian one and not the attic.

Sphyraina or Sphyrida (σφύραινα / σφυρίδα ) ..still swims in the Greek waters.

[makedonin]

"I know too, of many Attic writers who use idioms of the Macedonians as a result of intercourse with them.”( Athenaeus .. Deipnosophistae, III. 121-122)

Tootpasete, repeating Greek Greek Greek won't make anything greek.

[Delodephius]

I would say that those Greek Macedonian words are in fact words used by Macedonians who spoke Greek as a second language and so added and mixed from their native language. The way Latin was treated in the Middle Ages. It makes sense.

[toothpaste]

I dont care about the Megnetes, they might have been what ever but not greek, as for the Persian words you pick pointed, I will give you a tip too:

so don't be so sure about those persian words you label so easy as Greek to be genuine Greek

The words I wrote are actually Greek ,while those noted are already written by Hesychius (αγγάροι,παρασάγγας etc) in the above text are of persian origin.

More or less you come in what i said. Hesychius writes abt peculiar words that were used in Greek.
Some of them were rare Greek words ,or regional idioms (like Laecedemonian,Attic,Macedonian,Magnetan) some were loans.

[makedonin]

Some of the "persian" words... κήπος(=garden),μηλοφόροι(=apple bearers),ξένοι(=foreigners),αθάνατοι(=immortals), etc etc

hm...

As for Magnetes
(i ll help u giving a point..they were living in Pelion mountain..central Greece.)

I dont care about the Megnetes, they might have been what ever but not greek, as for the Persian words you pick pointed, I will give you a tip too:

"And my justification is this. Even in the ancient poets and historians, those who wrote the purest Greek, one may find Persian words adopted because of there common use in the spoken language, such as " parasangs", "astands" and " angari " and "schoenos", musculine or feminine; this last is a measure of distance still so called among many people.I know too, of many Attic writers who use idioms of the Macedonians as a result of intercourse with them.”( Athenaeus .. Deipnosophistae, III. 121-122)

so don't be so sure about those persian words you label so easy as Greek to be genuine Greek

[toothpaste]

Do you Know who this LYΔOI and PERΣAI are???

Proto Greek speakers may be???

please do explain it.

As for the ΜΑΓΝΗΤΕΣ it is irrelevant for me now, but we can find out if we search ancient sources... Hesychius seem to know and noticed them, it is all that is relevant for the topic.

Some of the "persian" words... κήπος(=garden),μηλοφόροι(=apple bearers),ξένοι(=foreigners),αθάνατοι(=immortals), etc etc

hm...

As for Magnetes
(i ll help u giving a point..they were living in Pelion mountain..central Greece.)

[makedonin]

Do you know who are these ΜΑΓΝΗΤΕΣ ?

Do you Know who this LYΔOI and PERΣAI are???

Proto Greek speakers may be???

please do explain it.

As for the ΜΑΓΝΗΤΕΣ it is irrelevant for me now, but we can find out if we search ancient sources... Hesychius seem to know and noticed them, it is all that is relevant for the topic.

[toothpaste]

Do you know who are these ΜΑΓΝΗΤΕΣ ?

[makedonin]

In fact Hesychius main object was to present rear,unusual words and phrases of Greek.

Thats the stupidiest thing that I have ever read.

Hesychius have Italic Roman Persian Hindi Sanskrit Phoencian Assyrian etc. words.

He was collecting words from Peoples that he found interesting.









Please do feel free to enlighten me of this rare Greek dialects, I am very interested in them.
If you consider the Persians Romans Italians etc. Greek, than be my guest

[toothpaste]

Makedonin is dead right.

Even Kalleris's study of "ancient Macedonian" words is weak and full of flaws.

Kalleris uses words that were in use in Macedonia, in very late antiquity, which is a very small window to be looking through.

So ...since they were used in late antiquity,u think that's the reason they were Greek ?

[Pelister]

Makedonin is dead right.

Even Kalleris's study of "ancient Macedonian" words is weak and full of flaws.

Kalleris uses words that were in use in Macedonia, in very late antiquity, which is a very small window to be looking through.

Now Kalleris is a propogandist, and yet even he admits that at least 30% of ancient Macedonian words that he found, were not Greek. So what were they? It is also important to put these assumptions into context, of what the Greeks thought of the Macedonians, and what the Macedonians thought of themselves, as well as the incontravertible evidence that ordinary ancient Macedonians needed the use of translators to converse with Greeks.

But he is a victim of his own bizarre logic.

[toothpaste]

so you would like!

what ever, I have gone through those greek interpretations of the greek ethimology's so have others, very vague and blurry.


Fact is, that the vast ,say 90%, Ancient Macedonian words by Hesychius are not present in any other so called Greek Dialects, nor they are to be linked to greek ethymology.

In fact Hesychius main object was to present rear,unusual words and phrases of Greek.

for macedonian...
* ἄβαγνα abagna 'roses amaranta (unwithered)' (Attic ῥόδα rhoda , Aeolic βρόδα broda roses).(LSJ: amarantos unfading.Amaranth flower. (Aeolic ἄβα aba 'youthful prime' + ἁγνός hagnos 'pure, chaste, unsullied) or epithet aphagna from aphagnizo 'purify'[62].If abagnon is the proper name for rhodon rose, then it is cognate to Persian bāġ , 'garden' , Gothic bagms 'tree' and Greek bakanon 'cabbage-seed'.Finally, a Phrygian borrowing is highly possible if we think of the famous Gardens of Midas , where roses grow of themselves (see Herodotus 8.138.2 , Athenaeus 15.683)
* ἀβαρκνᾷ abarknai κομᾷ † τὲ Μακεδόνες Text Corrupted (komai ? , ἄβαρκνα abarkna hunger, famine.
* ἀβαρύ abarú 'oregano' (Hes. ὀρίγανον origanon) (LSJ: βαρύ barú perfume used in incense, Attic βαρύ barú 'heavy') (LSJ amarakon sweet Origanum Majorana)(Hes. for origanon ἀγριβρόξ agribrox, ἄβρομον abromon , ἄρτιφος artiphos, κεβλήνη keblênê)
* ἀβλόη , ἀλογεῖ abloē , alogei Text Corrupted †<ἀβλόη>· σπένδε Μακεδόνες [<ἀλογεῖ>· σπεῖσον Μακεδόνες] spendô)
* ἀβροῦτες or ἀβροῦϜες abroûtes or abroûwes 'eyebrows' (Hes. Attic ὀφρῦς ophrûs acc. pl., ὀφρύες ophrúes nom., PIE *bhru-) (Lithuanian bruvis , Persian abru) (Koine Greek ophrudia , Modern Greek φρύδια frydia)
* ἀγκαλίς ankalis Attic 'weight, burden, load' Macedonian 'sickle' (Hes. Attic ἄχθος ákhthos , δρέπανον drépanon, LSJ Attic ἀγκαλίς ankalís 'bundle', or in pl. ἀγκάλαι ankálai 'arms' (body parts), ἄγκαλος ánkalos 'armful, bundle', ἀγκάλη ankálē 'the bent arm' or 'anything closely enfolding', as the arms of the sea, PIE *ank 'to bend') ( ἀγκυλίς ankylis 'barb' Oppianus.C.1.155.)
* ἄδδαι addai poles of a chariot or car,logs (Attic ῥυμοὶ rhumoi) (Aeolic usdoi ,Attic ozoi ,branches,twigs) PIE *H₂ó-sd-o- , branch
* ἀδῆ adē 'clear sky' or 'the upper air' (Hes. οὐρανός ouranós 'sky', LSJ and Pokorny Attic αἰθήρ aithēr 'ether, the upper, purer air', hence 'clear sky, heaven')
* ἄδισκον adiskon potion,cocktail ( Attic kykeôn )
* ἄδραια adraia 'fine weather, open sky' (Hes. Attic αἰθρία aithría, PIE *aidh-)
* Ἀέροπες Aeropes tribe (wind-faced) (aero- +opsis(aerops opos, Boeotian name for the bird merops)
* ἀκόντιον akontion spine or backbone,anything ridged like the backbone:ridge of a hill or mountain (Attic rhachis) (Attic akontion spear,javelin) (Aeolic akontion part of troops)
* ἀκρέα akrea girl ( Attic κόρη korê , Ionic kourê ,Doric/Aeolic kora ,Arcadian korwa , Laconian kyrsanis ( Ἀκρέα , epithet of Aphrodite in Cyprus,instead of Akraia , on the heights ).
* ἀκρουνοί akrounoi 'boundary stones' nom. pl. (Hes. ὃροι hóroi, LSJ Attic ἄκρος ákros 'at the end or extremity', from ἀκή akē 'point, edge', PIE *ak 'summit, point' or 'sharp')
* ἀλίη alíē 'boar or boarfish' (Attic kapros) (PIE *ol-/*el- "red, brown" (in animal and tree names)[63](Homeric ellos fawn , Attic elaphos deer ,alkê elk)
* ἄλιζα aliza (also alixa) 'White Poplar' (Attic λεύκη leúkē , Thessalian alphinia, LSJ:ἄλυζα , aluza globularia alypum) (Pokorny Attic ἐλάτη elátē 'fir, spruce', PIE *ol-, *el- , P.Gmc. and Span. aliso 'alder')
* ἄξος axos 'timber' (Hes. Attic ὓληhulê) (Cretan Doric ausos Attic alsos grove little forest. (PIE *os- ash tree(OE.æsc ash tree),(Greek.οξυά oxya,Albanian ah,beech),(Armenian. haci ash tree)
* ἀορτής aortês, 'swordsman' (Hes. ξιφιστής; Homer ἄορ áor 'sword'; Attic ἀορτήρ aortēr 'swordstrap', modern Greek αορτήρ aortír 'riflestrap'; hence aorta) (According to Suidas: Many now say the knapsack ἀβερτὴ abertê instead of aortê . Both the object and the word [are] Macedonian.
* Ἀράντιδες Αrantides Erinyes ( in dative ἀράντισιν ἐρινύσι)(Arae[64] name for Erinyes,arasimos accursed , araomai invoke,curse,pray or rhantizô sprinkle,purify.
* ἄργελλα argella 'bathing hut'. Cimmerian ἄργιλλα or argila 'subterranean dwelling' (Ephorus in Strb. 5.4.5) PIE *areg-; borrowed into Balkan Latin and gave Romanian argea (pl. argele), "wooden hut", dialectal (Banat) arghela "stud farm") ; cf. Sanskrit argalā 'latch, bolt', Old English reced "building, house", Albanian argësh "harrow, crude bridge of crossbars, crude raft supported by skin bladders"
* ἀργιόπους argiopous 'eagle' (LSJ Attic ἀργίπους argípous 'swift- or white-footed', PIE *hrg'i-pods < PIE *arg + PIE *ped)
* Ἄρητος Arētos epithet or alternative of Herakles (Ares-like)
* ἀρκόν arkon 'leisure, idleness' (LSJ Attic ἀργός argós 'lazy, idle' nom. sing., ἀργόν acc.)
* ἀρφύς arhphys (Attic ἱμάς himas strap,rope),(ἁρπεδών harpedôn cord, yarn; ἁρπεδόνα Rhodes, Lindos II 2.37).
* ἄσπιλος aspilos 'torrent' (Hes. χείμαῤῥος kheímarrhos, Attic ἄσπιλος áspilos 'without stain, spotless, pure')
* βαβρήν babrên lees of olive-oil ( LSJ: βάβρηκες babrêkes gums, or food in the teeth, βαβύας babuas mud )
* βαθάρα bathara pukliê (Macedonian), purlos (Athamanian) (unattested; maybe food, atharê porridge , pyros wheat)
* βίῤῥοξ birrhox dense,thick ( LSJ:βειρόν beiron )
* γάρκα garka rod ( Attic charax ) ( EM: garkon axle-pin ) ( LSJ: garrha rod )
* γόλα gola or goda bowels,intestines ( Homeric cholades ) PIE: ghel-ond-, ghol-n•d- stomach; bowels[65]
* γοτάν gotan 'pig' acc. sing. ( PIE *gwou- 'cattle', ( Attic βοτόν botón ' beast', in plural βοτά botá 'grazing animals' ) ( Laconian grôna sow female pig, and pl. grônades ) ( LSJ:goi , goi, to imitate the sound of pigs ) ( goitasheep or pig )
* γυλλάς gyllas kind of glass (gyalas a Megarian cup)
* γῶψ gôps pl. gopes macherel ( Attic koloios ) ( LSJ: skôps a fish ) (Modern Greek gopa bogue fish pl. gopes)
* δαίτας daitas caterer waiter ( Attic daitros
* δάνος danos 'death', (Hes. Attic thánatos θάνατος 'death', from root θαν- than-) ,PIE *dhenh2- 'to leave, δανoτής danotês (disaster,pain) Sophocles Lacaenae fr.338[66]
* δανῶν danōn 'murderer' (Attic θανών thanōn dead ,past participle)
* δάρυλλος darullos 'oak' (Hes. Attic δρῦς drûs, PIE *doru-)
* δρῆες drêes or δρῆγες drêges small birds ( Attic strouthoi ) (Elean δειρήτης deirêtês , strouthos, Nicander.Fr.123.)( LSJ: διγῆρες digêres strouthoi , δρίξ drix strouthos)
* δώραξ dôrax spleen , splên (Attic θώραξ thôrax chest,corslet
* ἐπιδειπνίς epideipnis Macedonian dessert
* Ζειρηνίς Zeirênis epithet or alternative for Aphrodite (Seirênis Siren-like)
* Ἠμαθία Êmathia ex-name of Macedonia,region of Emathia from mythological Emathus (Homeric amathos êmathoessa, river-sandy land , PIE *samadh[67]. Generally the coastal Lower Macedonia in contrast to mountainous Upper Macedonia.For meadow land (mē-2, m-e-t- to reap) ,see Pokorny[68].
* Θαῦλος Thaulos epithet or alternative of Ares ( Θαύλια Thaulia 'festival in Doric Tarentum , θαυλίζειν thaulizein 'to celebrate like Dorians' , Thessalian Ζεὺς Θαύλιος Zeus Thaulios, the only attested in epigraphy 10 times, Athenian Ζεὺς Θαύλων Zeus Thaulôn, Athenian family Θαυλωνίδαι Thaulônidai
* Θούριδες Thourides Nymphs Muses (Homeric thouros rushing, impetuous.
* ἰζέλα izela wish, good luck (Attic agathêi tychêi) (Doric bale , abale,Arcadian zele ) ( Cretan delton agathon )[69] or Thracian zelas wine.
* ἴλαξ ílax 'the holm-oak, evergreen or scarlet oak' (Hes. Attic πρῖνος prînos, Latin ilex)
* ἰν δέᾳ in dea midday ( Attic endia , mesêmbria) (Arcadian also in instead of Attic en)
* κἄγχαρμον kancharmon having the lance up τὸ τὴν λόγχην ἄνω ἔχον (Hes. ἄγχαρμον ancharmon ἀνωφερῆ τὴν αἰχμήν <ἔχων> Ibyc? Stes?) having upwards the point of a spear)

(κἄ , Crasis) kai and,together,simultaneously + anô up (anôchmon hortatory password)

* κάραβος karabos
o Macedonian 'gate, door' (Cf. karphos any small dry body,piece of wood (Hes. Attic 'meat roasted over coals'; Attic karabos 'stag-beetle'; 'crayfish'; 'light ship'; hence modern Greek καράβι karávi)
o 'the worms in dry wood' (Attic 'stag-beetle, horned beetle; crayfish')
o 'a sea creature' (Attic 'crayfish, prickly crustacean; stag-beetle')
* καρπαία karpaia Thessalo-Macedonian mimic military dance (see also Carpaea) Homeric karpalimos swift (for foot) eager,ravenous.
* κίκεῤῥοι kí[k]erroi 'pale ones (?)' (Hes. Attic ὦχροι ōkhroi, PIE *k̂ik̂er- 'pea') (LSJ:kikeros land crocodile)
* κομμάραι kommarai or komarai crawfishes (Attic karides)(LSJ:kammaros a kind of lobster, Epicharmus.60, Sophron.26, Rhinthon.18:-- also kammaris , idos Galen.6.735.) (komaris a fish Epicharmus.47.)
* κόμβοι komboi 'molars' (Attic γομφίοι gomphioi, dim. of γόμφος gomphos 'a large, wedge-shaped bolt or nail; any bond or fastening', PIE *gombh-)
* κυνοῦπες kynoupes or kynoutos bear (Hesychius kynoupeus, knoupeus ,knôpeus)(kunôpês dog-faced) (knôps beast esp. serpent instead of kinôpeton , blind acc. Zonar (from knephas dark)(if kynoutos (knôdês knôdalon beast)
* λακεδάμα lakedáma ὕδωρ ἁλμυρὸν ἄλικι ἐπικεχυμένον salty water withalix , rice-wheat or fish-sauce.(Cf.skorodalmê 'sauce or pickle composed of brine and garlic'). According to Albrecht von Blumenthal,[53] -ama corresponds to Attic ἁλμυρός halmurós 'salty'; Cretan Doric hauma for Attic halmē; laked- is cognate to Proto-Germanic *lauka[70] leek ,possibly related is Λακεδαίμων Laked-aímōn, the name of the Spartan land.
* λείβηθρον leíbēthron 'stream' (Hes. Attic ῥεῖθρον rheîthron, also λιβάδιον libádion, 'a small stream', dim. of λιβάς libás; PIE *lei, 'to flow'); typical Greek productive suffix -θρον (-thron) (Macedonian toponym , Pierian Leibethra place/tomb of Orpheus)
* ματτύης mattuês kind of bird ( ματτύη mattuê a meat-dessert of Macedonian or Thessalian origin) (verb mattuazo to prepare the mattue) (Athenaeus)[71]
* παραός paraos eagle or kind of eagle (Attic aetos , Pamphylian aibetos) (PIE *por- 'going, passage' + *awi- 'bird') (Greek para- 'beside' + Hes. aos wind) (It may exist as food in Lopado...pterygon)
* περιπέτεια peripeteia or περίτια peritia Macedonian festival in month Peritios. (Hesychius text περί[πε]τ[ε]ια )
* ῥάματα rhamata bunch of grapes (Ionic rhagmata,rhages Koine rhôgmata,rhôges , rhax rhôx)
* ῥοῦτο rhouto this (neut.) (Attic τοῦτο touto)
* ταγόναγα tagonaga Macedonian institution,administration ( Thessalian ταγὸς tagos commander +ἄγωagô lead)

(sorry for the length)