Greek logic

[Вардарец]

Quoting toothpaste the hellene

But even after some decates Paionians managed to escape the Macedonian rule and reestablished indipendence under their own king and with their own capital (First Bylazora ,then Astibos) -(Macedonian capitals first Aigai ,then Pella)

He wanted to tell us that the Paionians were different from Macedonians.

Okay.

Let's not spam the Paionian topic about it, so let's see here.

Try to use that logic for your own beliefs too.

Macedonian - Pella
Athenian - Athens
Spartan - Sparta

And so on.

Modern way of thinking and using Greek logic

Albania - Tirana
Kosovo - Prishtina

They are "different"

[sydney]

"ko grk budala" ... heard this plenty of times from my old man growing up in australia, typically used when logic/common sense was absent

[toothpaste]

So your belief that the Paionians were Macedonians comes out just of your common tsense,your instic and an "australian" quote ?

Because i usually base mine on arguments and sources-Sounds crazy ?

[Вардарец]

So your belief that the Paionians were Macedonians comes out just of your common tsense,your instic and an "australian" quote ?

Because i usually base mine on arguments and sources-Sounds crazy ?

My belief is that Paeonians, Pelagoanians, Orestians etc, are the same people.

[toothpaste]

My belief is that Paeonians, Pelagoanians, Orestians etc, are the same people.

Yes,but contradicts all ancient writers.

They speak about Upper Macedonian semi-autonomous kingdoms,subordinate to the Lower Macedonian kingdom of Argeads.

Upper Macedonia consisted of Orestis,Lyncestis ,Elimeia (or Elimiotis) and (depends on the author) Pelagonia,Derriopos,Tymphaia.

NOT PAIONIA.

The following is from Herodotus, Book V, Terpichore.


"The Paeonians therefore- at least such of them as had been conquered- were led away into Asia. As for Megabazus, he no sooner brought the Paeonians under, than he sent into Macedonia an embassy of Persians, choosing for the purpose the seven men of most note in all the army after himself.
These persons were to go to Amyntas, and require him to give earth and water to King Darius. Now there is a very short cut from the Lake Prasias across to Macedonia. Quite close to the lake is the mine which yielded afterwards a talent of silver a day to Alexander; and from this mine you have only to cross the mountain called Dysorum to find yourself in the Macedonian territory. "

Paeonians and Macedonians are different people.

[Вардарец]

Aha, and before the Pelagonians became a subordinate kingdom, they were different too, right? Macedonian territory was at the south of them.

[makedonin]

The question is fundamental:

- what does make people different and what does make people equal?

answear this and the problem is solved.

The Hellens of the time never acted as equal people, but sometimes grouped them and acted as one, and than on other account they crushed their heads and made war!

were they equal or different?

Deffinition is needed and than apply it to all, not employing double standards.

My own oppinion is that, even if some people share same or similar language and culture, only same goal and ideology unite them.

And Ideology and Goals change over times.

[Pelister]

The question is fundamental:

- what does make people different and what does make people equal?

answear this and the problem is solved.

The Hellens of the time never acted as equal people, but sometimes grouped them and acted as one, and than on other account they crushed their heads and made war!

were they equal or different?

Deffinition is needed and than apply it to all, not employing double standards.

My own oppinion is that, even if some people share same or similar language and culture, only same goal and ideology unite them.

And Ideology and Goals change over times.

Yea, but whats the question here. The identity of the ancient Macedonians, right?

We are not saying that the Paeonians were Macedonians, and that the Macedonians were Paeonians.

If the Paeonians were a separate people, say Slavic speakers or something like that - Bylazora is about as Slavic as you can get, 'Zora' is an ancient Slavic diety in any case.

It is the close association between the Paeonians and the Macedonians (for example, some of Phillips, and subsequently Alexanders best generals were Paeonians), THAT RAISES QUESTION about the true identity of the ancient Macedonians.

For instance, if the Paeonians were a Slavic tribe, how could they form a large part of Macedonian dynastic aristocracy? What can this tell us about the ancient Macedonians native langauge?

[Giorikas]

So were they Slavic scouts possibly thet settled ahead of the larger migration worshipping Zora and and founding/inhabiting the undeniably Slavic sounding city called Bylazora? This is huge, we must communicate this to the worldmedia. That would explain how 1000 years before the actual migration Macedonians might have already adopted the unique form of a Slavic language which made more sense then keeping the distinct non-Greek old Macedonian language although many words have remained in Modern Macedonian.

[makedonin]

Yea, but whats the question here. The identity of the ancient Macedonians, right?

I never said that they would no have been similar people. It is more likely that they had very similar language.

As for the Ancient Macedonians it is well doumented that they spoke the barbarian language, thus different than the Hellenic, only the Royal House with the nobles adopted the Lingua Franca of the Time, the Koine.

The groupation the Peonian, Thracian, Illyrian and Macedonian is very similar to the picture of modern days, languages of the same group of langages.

[toothpaste]

I never said that they would no have been similar people. It is more likely that they had very similar language.

HOW U KNOW THAT ?
Present some source...argument..smth

As for the Ancient Macedonians it is well doumented that they spoke the barbarian language, thus different than the Hellenic, only the Royal House with the nobles adopted the Lingua Franca of the Time, the Koine.

Attic dialect was adopted during Alexander I reign (FIRST HALF OF 5 TH CENT BC).

Koine was formed after Alexander's conquest,during the Hellenistic Period . (323 - 31 BC)

That's 150-450 years later.

The groupation the Peonian, Thracian, Illyrian and Macedonian is very similar to the picture of modern days, languages of the same group of langages.

How on Earth can you tell this?
Any EVIDENCE ?????!?

[makedonin]

So were they Slavic scouts possibly thet settled ahead of the larger migration worshipping Zora and and founding/inhabiting the undeniably Slavic sounding city called Bylazora? This is huge, we must communicate this to the worldmedia. That would explain how 1000 years before the actual migration Macedonians might have already adopted the unique form of a Slavic language which made more sense then keeping the distinct non-Greek old Macedonian language although many words have remained in Modern Macedonian.

-- If you go with set mind that there must have been some kind of migration, than it will be contradicting to you.

-- how ever there are many Modern Macedonian words when compared with Ancient languages are strikingly similar in the pronounciation and it's meaning and ethymology.

-- your suggestion that the Macedonians adopted any language just shows that you are with the preset that they must have spoken an so called Greek dialect, which has been shown wrong many times.

unfortunally there are not much words left that can be traced to the Anceint Macedonians, so this can't be proven as 100% a fact.

-- and following your sarcasm, why did all of the Greeks left written monuments i.e. wrote like crazy, while the Macedonians who are seposed to be Greek have not left a signgle written monument that can rove their supposed Greek Dialect.

All that is found are some Koine and Attik inscriptions.

thus, we agree to disagree

[makedonin]

How on Earth can you tell this?
Any EVIDENCE ?????!?

Heard about the Hesychius Alexandrini Lexicon, there are almost all preserved Ancient Macedonian words as well many other Ancient Languages, i.e. Thracian, Phrygian,Persian, Sanskrit, Attik, Lakademonian and many others.

The Section is called Gossoi Ethnika. There is all that one needs to see this, but there are many more hints in the ancient Authors, so it is not in my scope to waste my time presenting something to you, which will than bring no result.

[toothpaste]

Heard about the Hesychius Alexandrini Lexicon, there are almost all preserved Ancient Macedonian words as well many other Ancient Languages, i.e. Thracian, Phrygian,Persian, Hindi, Attik, Lakademonian and many others.

The Section is called Gossoi Ethnika. There is all that one needs to see this, but there are many more hints in the ancient Authors, so it is not in my scope to waste my time presenting something to you, which will than bring no result.

I ve read it.The original text is in Greek.


Do u suggest Attic and Lakaidemonian were different languages too?

Whats your conclusion abt Paionian,Thracian and Macedonian after reading Glossai Ethnikai ??

[makedonin]

I ve read it.The original text is in Greek.


Do u suggest Attic and Lakaidemonian were different languages too?

Whats your conclusion abt Paionian,Thracian and Macedonian after reading Glossai Ethnikai ??

According to Hesychius, yes, he puts them in the same bunch of Languages of Peoples, this might be conected with the fact that even though similar speaking, they had their differences and saw them as two different people, would you dislike that idea?

This is written with the so called Greek i.e. Phoenshian Alphabet translations of the given words are in Koine.

You can't just dump an conclusion about the languages, however one can sense that they might have been similar, although, the Ancient Macedonian could have had two main Dialects i.e. Upper and Lower dialect.

For example, Hesychius records two Ancient Macedonian words who were used for Head:

kevalee and gavalan, alghough the pronounciation could not be 100% sure.

kevalee is seen by some linguists as version of kefalos, while gavalan is more closely to the Modern Macedonian word glava where the meaning is the same, while the the characters V and L have changed places.

How ever in Modern Macedonian we also have the word kelav meaning bold headed where the V and L also have changed places. in old Germanic there is the word kalawa with the same meaning.

There are more such instances of Ancient Macedonian language that show possible Upper and Lower Dialect Forms. But here we can never be sure of it or prove this, that there were two Dialects.