The Thracian people and language

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am sure there will be plenty to discuss.

Here is a video to start off with, pay attention to the period between 4.00 to 4.30.

YouTube - The Mystery of The Thracians - tombs & gold treasures HD - DISCOVER BULGARIA - part 1

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is what Strabo says about the inhabitants of Greece and other adjacent areas before the Greeks arrived:

Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus, that, before the time of the Greeks, it was inhabited by barbarians. Perhaps even the whole of Greece was, anciently, a settlement of barbarians, if we judge from former accounts. For Pelops brought colonists from Phrygia into the Peloponnesus, which took his name; Danaus brought colonists from Egypt; Dry- opes, Caucones, Pelasgi, Leleges, and other barbarous nations, partitioned among themselves the country on this side of the isthmus. The case was the same on the other side of the isthmus; for Thracians, under their leader Eumolpus, took possession of Attica; Tereus of Daulis in Phocaea; the Phoenicians, with their leader Cadmus, occupied the Cadmeian district; Aones, and Temmices, and Hyantes, Boeotia. Pindar says, `there was a time when the Boeotian people were called Syes.' Some names show their barbarous origin, as Cecrops, Codrus, Ceclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotae are settled even at present on the sides of Greece. Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The below map which is a snapshot from the clip displays the Thracians living in almost the same expanse as the Slavic-speaking nations of Europe. It supports the theory of Thracian origins for the Slavs.

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.thracian.info/thrace_peoples.htm

Homer in his Iliad, describes the Thracians as the breeders of beautiful and fast running horses.
Thucydides in his account says, that the people of the area between the Ionian Sea and Pontus Euxinus are the richest in income and all kinds of goods.

Strabo describes the Thracians 22 in number of tribes living in the villages and in a close distance to each other. That must be true, because we do not know any big town or city in Thrace before Alexander the Great and his successors.

Herodotus in his History, about the Thracians ; "The most populated area after India, is Thrace. If they were under one rule and of one mind, they would have been the mightiest people on earth. But the unity of these peoples have never been achieved, that's the weakest point of the Thracians. They take different names by the area they live around, but they all have common customs and traditions".

Pausanias makes a similar description of the Thracians. "If compared to other nations of the earth, Thracians altogether are the most crowded people after the Celts. For this reason, no other nation before the Romans has been able to cover the Thracians under their hegemony. Only Romans was the first to rule Thracians

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[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Thrace

The name "Illyrian" (see Illyria) was applied to all the tribes of this stock who dwelt west of the northern extensions of the Pindus range and in what was termed Upper Macedonia in later times, and who extended right up to the head of the Adriatic. In Homer the name Macedonia is not yet known, and the term Thracian is applied to all the tribes dwelling from Pieria to the Euxine. There is no well-defined difference between aboriginal Thracians and Illyrians. Thus there was an Illyrian tribe Brygi, a Thracian one Bryges; some of the latter had passed into Asia and settled in the land called from them Phrygia, whence some of them later passed into Armenia; some of the Mysians (regarded by Strabo as Thracians) had also crossed into what was later known as Mysia: closely connected with the Mysians were the Dardanii, of Trojan fame, who had a city Dardania or Dardanus. In Strabo's time a tribe called Dardanii, then reckoned Illyrian, living next the Thracian Bessi (in whose land was the oldest oracle of Dionysus), were probably as much Thracian as Illyrian. All the Thracian and Illyrian tribes tattooed, thus being distinguished from the Celtic tribes who had conquered many of them. The Thracians differed only dialectically from the Illyrians (Strabo), their tongue being closely allied to Greek.

I would be interested to know which quote of Strabo has inspired this person to make such a statement.

[I of Macedon]

What I find interesting is that the ancent author knew that the Indians were so vast in numbers and yet lived so far away relative to the Thracians (whom he considered the second most populated after the Indians). And yet according to the you know what model these people (the Thracians) along with others were “wiped out” by the Slavs (or at least “eventually”)

Again a people so numerous and spread all around the Balkans and beyond – could cease to exists because of no one else (not the romans, not the Macedonians, not the greeks, not the Persians but by another “barbaric” people the “slavs.”

What I also found interesting from the statement is that they were known to take different names pending the area they live in and were never united

This latter statement may even reflect somewhat the drastic changes that were taking place by the emergence of leaders in the Balkans (5-6th century etc), and how Florin Curta mentions as such. Further, by making sense of who was who amidst the confusion (and across both sides of the Danube) the Byzantine authors grouped people together hence the eventual Slavs etc


I’m also curious, did the Thracians even refer to themselves as such (initially or later on) and/or was it a label imposed on them from the outside (e.g by the ancient Greeks)?

Because if the Thracians are known to take different names where ever they reside it may appear the name didn’t carry much weight for them (at least not in the sense as can be applied today), considering also todays Bulgarians using the name from the Asiatic Bulgars.

[Delodephius]

Here is an interesting book I'm currently reading - The Thracians 700 BC-46 AD:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11037274/The-Thracians-700-BC-46-AD

There is one of better quality on GoogleBooks, but not all pages and not available for download:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5FHuDZYFrbcC&dq=%22the+thracians%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=al4cPWCPid&sig=oZshyUuh5B7kyIseiSgBH1_-om4&hl=en&ei=AgLhSb68DceOsAawpfzTCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=15#PPA3,M1

[Delodephius]

YouTube - Thracian culture

[Pelister]

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Thrace




I would be interested to know which quote of Strabo has inspired this person to make such a statement.

This is a great thread.

If, according to Herodotus, Thrace is the most populated region of the world, and Macedonia had been "occupied by Thracians" since some dark age in the past - the question is where did all the Thracian go? How could they disappear without leaving a trace? I believe this idea pushed by the New Greeks that the 5th century constitutes "a clean break" is a cunning way of blind siding people from the fact that there are little or no traces of the ancient Thracians because the are indistinguishable from the current Slavic (Thracian) speakers living their today.

I find the reference to tattoos interesting, because Macedonians tattoo themselves, and their children, and this custom is also practiced by the Croatians along the Dalmation coast line.

[Sarafot]

I find the reference to tattoos interesting, because Macedonians tattoo themselves, and their children, and this custom is also practiced by the Croatians along the Dalmation coast line.

Yap,evan today it is the same,if we do not count modern tatoos you will find Macedonians and Croats most tatooed,my father chest is tatooed arms,my grand father fas also tatooed on chest and arms,and today me on back arms and legs?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I believe this idea pushed by the New Greeks that the 5th century constitutes "a clean break" is a cunning way of blind siding people from the fact that there are little or no traces of the ancient Thracians because the are indistinguishable from the current Slavic (Thracian) speakers living their today.

Absolutely.

[Pelister]

I of Macedon,

There are huge gaps in our history, from late antiquity to the present. It is very possible that the land inhabited by Thracians, as mentioned by Herodotus, took on new names, down the centuries, but again, we are forced to go back to the question, how can such a numerous people, culturally advanced, and organized into kingdoms, simply "disappear"? I think you are onto something, when you raise the point that the Thracians, were described at different periods in history, by different names, but that they are one and the same people. The other point you raised about "who named them" is important to, because much of what we know about the history of the region, and its people, comes down to us in Greek, and/or Latin. Who knows why some names were in vogue, and others not, or why the Thracians stopped being called Thracians, and were now called Dacians, or Getae or Slavs ...etc? I guess we have to account for the possibility that the ancient Thracians, and Illyrians were so numerous, that by the 4th century A.D, they had broken off into various, more distinguishable, Slavic spaeking tribes.

[Rogi]

This is plausible.

Otherwise, there would have to be some record in history or archaeology which would show the most numerous people (Thracians) migrating out of the area. Such a large number of people cannot disappear without a trace, they can however become more tribal (breaking off into their own, smaller communities which today form nations, etc).

[Risto the Great]

This is plausible.

Otherwise, there would have to be some record in history or archaeology which would show the most numerous people (Thracians) migrating out of the area. Such a large number of people cannot disappear without a trace, they can however become more tribal (breaking off into their own, smaller communities which today form nations, etc).

This goes to the heart of modern nationalism.
Of course this is the case and anybody who feels they need to ignore 2000 or so years of modern history in order to define an exclusive claim on an ancient race is either completely stupid or Greek ... or both.

[Pelister]

RTG, they are probably just being Greek, or I should say New Greek.

Given the evidence available, I already see a strong connection to the ancient Thracians, but that is only because we know so litte about the ancient Macedonians. Knowing that Greek wasn't their native langauge is not enough, though. It is possible that this vast tribe of Thracians broke off into separate nations, much earlier than we realize, very possibly in early antiquity, hence, the Illyrians, Macedonians ...etc. The Thracians were the only ones that did not, have to pay tribute to the Macedonians, and a large section of the Macedonian army, was of Thracian origin. How did they communicate, I wonder?