The Thracian people and language

[Carlin]

Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotae are settled even at present on the sides of Greece. Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes. Book 7, ch. 7, frg. 1.''


Even before the Slavic invasion the Thracian were the absolute majority in Macedonia. Carlin what do you think of this?

The Thracians are described as occupying "some parts of Thessaly" too at that time. What parts were those? I wonder if we will ever know.



"From the time of Homer, the Thracians were legendary for their horsemanship."



Thracian clothing refers to types of clothing worn mainly by Thracians, Dacians but also by some Greeks. Its best literal descriptions are given by Herodotus and Xenophon in his Anabasis. Depictions are found in a great number of Greek vases and there are a few Persian representations as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_clothing

[tchaiku]

Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotae are settled even at present on the sides of Greece. Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes. Book 7, ch. 7, frg. 1.''


Even before the Slavic invasion the Thracian were the absolute majority in Macedonia. Carlin what do you think of this?

[Carlin]

Ioannes Zonaras Lexicon

Paeonians. Latin tribe or Thracian people; Macedonians



Zonaras also classifed these peoples as follows:

Dacians = Pechenegs
Illyrians = Barbarians, Thracians, even Bulgarians
Pannonians = Bulgarians

[Soldier of Macedon]

Interesting how we use the word "bendisa" given the God's name of "Bendis".

They look similar, but unrelated, see previous discussion: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...isa#post116514

[Risto the Great]

Interesting how we use the word "bendisa" given the God's name of "Bendis".

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

Repost

THRACIANS AND MYCENAEANS, Proceedings of the Fourth International Congress of Thracology - Rotterdam, 24-26 September 1984-EDITED BY JAN G.P. BEST and NANNY M. W. DE VRIES

Link:

http://archive.org/stream/ThraciansAndMycenaeansProceedingsOfFourthInternationalCongressOf/bulgaria_thracian-mycenaean_djvu.txt

Screenshots:

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

Regarding some "Thracian" names in Illyria, by Fanoula Papazoglou (the article is in French though).

Page 59 here --> https://www.scribd.com/document/1970...disnjak-CBI-12

Sur Quelques noms "Thraces" en Illyrie - On some "Thracian" names in Illyria

Summary:

The names Delus, Getas, Tippas, testified in new epigraphic finds in southern Illyria do not belong to Illyrian onomastics. At first sight they seem to confirm the famous thesis of K. Patsch that prior to the coming of the Illyrians, the Thracians inhabited all lands up to the Adriatic sea. However, these names, like some others which appear in Illyria, southern Dardania and other regions of northern Macedonia (Manios, Dida, Mescena, Maema, Doulos, Mestys, Pitta and others), are not testified at all in the rich onomastic documentation of Roman Thracia. In character they differ from regular Thracian names. That rules out the hypothesis that bearers of these names in Illyria were settlers from Thrace. For name Delus we can find analogy in Phrygia, the name Geta was the name of an Edonian king in V c. B.C. while Tipas appears only once on an inscription from the end of II c. B.C. as a leader of the Mede tribe. Manios and Doulos are spread throughout Phrygia, while Dida is a Paeonian name. All of these analogies indicate that we have remnants here of an ethnic element which can't be considered either Illyrian or Thracian.

The ancient sources know that in these regions earlier lived Brygians (Brigi), Edonians, and other related tribes, and that the Phrygians are part of the Balkan Brygians who moved to Asia Minor and settled there. Linguists classify the Phrygian tongue as very close to the ancient Macedonian tongue.

Illyrians and Thracians were not the only ethnic groups in the northern Balkans. Between them, and among them, there lived another, perhaps two (separate) ethnic groups.

In northern Macedonia - in Paeonia, Pelagonia, Mygdonia - there were also remnants of inhabitants who were neither Macedonians, nor Illyrians, nor Thracians. Beside the Paeonians, who were likely very close to the Phrygians, the Edonians also belong to this same ethnic family. In southern Illyria there were no Thracians, while Brygian (Edonian) Substrate survived in several enclaves. The question of the spread of the Brygians to the northwest remains open - likewise the position of the Illyrians during the time when the Brygians formed the bulk of population in southern Illyria - as well as the question of the relations between Brygians and Liburnians.





PS:

Fanula Papazoglu (Serbian: Фанула Папазоглу, Greek: Φανούλα Παπάζογλου/Fanoula Papazoglou, 1917– January 26, 2001) was a Yugoslav and Serbian classical scholar, epigrapher and academic. She was an expert in Ancient history of the Balkans. She founded the Centre for Ancient Epigraphy and Numismatics in 1970.

Papazoglu was born in Bitola, Kingdom of Serbia (modern R. Macedonia), into a Greco-Vlach family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanula_Papazoglu

[Carlin]

[Starling]

I found this study on Zalmoxis and the Thracian and Scythian origin of medical practices found in Greek texts: http://www.institutarheologie-istori...-XIV-XV-03.pdf

You can read more on her studies here: http://bgu.academia.edu/YuliaUstinova

I haven't been able to read much more than that first study but it seems pretty interesting so far.

[Starling]

Some of this stuff's already been covered before but it's nice to have the direct quotes and sources on hand.

The Geography of Strabo, vol.1
The notes aren't necessarily where they are in relation to the text in the interest of not cutting off sentences.

P.9:

He must have been acquainted with the Ister, (2) since he speaks of the Mysians, a Thracian race, dwelling on the banks of the Ister. He knew also the whole Thracian (3) coast adjacent thereto, as far as the Peneus, (4) for he mentions individually the Pæonians, Athos, the Axius, (5) and the neighbouring islands.

2. The Danube

3. Ancient Thrace consisted of the modern provinces of Bulgaria and Roumelia

4. A river of Thessaly, named at present Salampria

5. Now the river Vardari

P. 453-454:

2. The Greeks indeed considered the Getæ to be Thracians. They occupied either bank of the Danube, as also did the Mysians, likewise a Thracian people, now called the Mœsi, from whom are descended the Mysians, settled between the Lydians, the Phrygians, and the inhabitants of the Troad. Even the Phrygians themselves are the same as the Briges, a people of Thrace, as are also the Mygdones, Bebryces, the Mædobithyni, the Bithyni, the Thyni, and, as I consider, also are the Mariandyni. All these people quitted Europe entirely, the Mysians alone remaining. Posidonius appears to me to have rightly conjectured that it is the Mysians of Europe (or as I should say of Thrace) that Homer designates when he says,

“and his glorious eyes
Averting, on the land look’d down remote
Of the horse-breeding Thracians, of the bold
Close-fighting Mysian race….” (1)

For if anyone should understand them as the Mysians of Asia, the expression of the poet would not be fitting. For this would be, that having turned his eyes from the Trojans towards the land of the Thracians, he beheld at the same time the land of the Mysians, situated not far off from where he was, but conterminous with the Troad, rather behind it and on either side, but separated from Thrace by the breadth of the Hellespont. (2) This would be to confound the continents, and at the same time to disregard the form of the poet’s expression. For “to turn his eyes again,” is more especially to turn them behind him; but he who extends his vision from the Trojans to the people either behind them, or on either side of them, stretches his sight to a greater distance, but not in the least behind him. And this also is introduced as a proof of this very thing, that Homer classes with these the Hippemolgi, (3) the Galactophagi, (4) and the Abii, (5) who are the Scythian Hamaxœci (6) and Sarmatians; for at this day, all these nations, as well as the Bastarnæ, are mixed with the Thracians, more especially with those beyond the Danube, and some even with the Thracians on this side of the Danube; also amongst these are the Keltic tribes of the Boii, Scordisci, and Taurisci.

1. But he himself turned back his shining eyes apart, looking towards the land of the equestrian Thracians and the close-fighting Mysians. Illiad xiii. 3.

2. The Strait of the Dardanelles

3. Milkers of Mares

4. People who live on milk

5. Devoid of riches

6. Dwelling in wagons

P. 456:

5. For it is said that one of the nation of the Getæ, named Zalmoxis, (2) had served Pythagoras, and had acquired with this philosopher some astronomical knowledge, in addition to what he had learned from the Egyptians, amongst whom he had travelled.

2. Ζάλμοξις is the reading of the Paris manuscript, No. 1393, and we should have preferred it for the text, as more likely a Getæan name, but for the circumstances of his being generally written as Zalmoxis.

P. 466:

Now if he should declare that he considers them to be those of Asia he will misinterpret the poet, as has been observed; but if he should say that they were but an invention, as there were no Mysians in Thrace, he will be guilty of a palpable misstatement, for even in our own times Ælius Catus has removed from the opposite side of the Danube into Thrace fifty thousand Getæ, who speak a language cognate with the Thracian. They still inhabit the very spot, and pass by the name of Mœsi. Whether those of former times were so designated, and had their names slightly varied in Asia, or, as is more suitable to history and the poet’s expression, those in Thrace were at first called Mysians, is not certain.

P.467-468:

12. There was, from ancient times, another division of these people which still exists; thus, some they call Dacians and others Getæ; the Getæ extend towards Euxine and the east, but the Dacians are situated on the opposite side towards Germany and the sources of the Danube, (3) whom I consider to have been called Daci from a very early period. Whence among the Attics the names of Getæ and Davi were customary for slaves this at least is more probable than to consider them as taken from the Scythians who are names Daæ, (4) for they live far beyond Hyrcania, (5) and it is not likely that slaves would be brought all that way into Attica. It was usual with them to call their slaves after the name of the nation from whence they were brought, as Lydus and Syrus, (6) or else by a name much in use in their own country, as, for a Phrygian, Manes or Midas; for a Paphlagonian, Tibius. The nation which was raised to so much power by Bœrebistas has since been completely reduced by civil dissensions and contests with the Romans; however they are still able to send out 40,000 men armed for the wars.

3. Gosselin observes that the Dacians did not extend to the sources of the Danube, but to Bohemia, near the course of the Danube.

4. Gosselin seems to think that these Daæ are identical with the inhabitants of Daghistan. Davus is not found as the name of a slave amongst the Greeks till after the conquests of Alexander the Great.

5. Hyrcania comprehended the Corcan Daghistan.

6. From Lydia to Syria.

P. 468:

13. The river Maros (1) flows through their country into the Danube, (2) on which the Romans transported their military stores; for thus they termed the upper part of that river from its sources to the cataracts, which flows chiefly through the country of the Dacians, but the part below that point which flows through the country of the Getæ as far back as the Black Sea, they call the Ister. (3) The Dacians speak the same language as the Getæ. The Getæ are best known among the Greeks on account of the frequent wandering expeditions they make on both sides of the Danube, and their being mixed among the Thracians and Mysians. The like is the case with regard to the nation of the Triballi, a Thracian people; for they have received many refugees on occasions when their more powerful neighbours have driven out the weaker, from time to time the Scythians of the opposite side of the river, and the Bastarnæ, and the Sarmatians,4 become victorious, and those who are driven out cross over and some of them take up their residence either in the islands of the river or in Thrace, while on the other side the inhabitants are distressed by the Illyrians. At one time when the Getæ and the Dacians had increased to the greatest numbers, they were able to set on foot an army of two hundred thousand men, and are even likely to become subject to the Romans; still they are not quite yet under their sway on account of their trust with the Germans, who are enemies to the Romans.

1. Μάρισος Ποταμός.

2. ὁ Δανούιος.

3. ὁ Ιστος. Stephen of Byzantium says that the Ister was called Δάνουβις, and that in very ancient times it was called Matoas. According to Ptolemy the lower part of the Danube was called Ister from Axiopolis, now Rassovat; according to Agathemerus, from Vienna.

4. Σαυρομάται.

P.505:

9. Of Europe, there remains Macedonia, and the parts of Thrace contiguous to it, extending to Byzantium, Greece also, and the adjacent islands: indeed, Macedonia is a part of Greece. Following, however, the natural character of the country and its form, we have determined to separate it from Greece, and to unite it with Thrace, which borders upon it. - Strabo, after a few remarks, mentions Cypsela (3) and the river Hebrus. (4) He also describes a parallelogram in which is placed the whole of Macedonia. E.

3. Ipsala.

4. The Martiza.

The period of time when Macedonia was grouped with Greece for administrative purposes was in Strabo's time right?

P.510:

25. Somewhere in this neighbourhood is the mountain Berminus, (2) which was formerly in the possession of the Briges, a Thracian nation, some of whom passed over to Asia and were called by another name, the Phrygians (Phryges). After Thesalonica, follows the remaining part of the Thermæan Gulf, (3) extending to Castræum. (4) This is a promontory of a peninsula form, and is opposite to Magnesia. Pallene is the name of the peninsula. It has 5 stadia in width, with a ditch cut across it.

2. Buræus.

3. Gulf of Salonica.

4. Cape Pailuri.

P. 514:

40. As the Pœanismus, or singing of the Thracian Pæan, was called titanusmus by the Greeks, in imitation of a well known note in the Pæan, so the Pelagones were called Titanes. E.

[tchaiku]

The below map which is a snapshot from the clip displays the Thracians living in almost the same expanse as the Slavic-speaking nations of Europe. It supports the theory of Thracian origins for the Slavs.

I also believe Slavic tribes were related to Thracians.

[Carlin]

Can't recall if I already shared this at some point. Not sure where to add it, so it goes in this thread. The admins can move it as they see fit.


This is a list of plant names in Dacian, an ancient language of South Eastern Europe, from Dioscorides' De Materia Medica (abb. MM) and Pseudo-Apuleius' Herbarius (abb. Herb.). Dacian plant names are one of the primary sources left to us for studying the Dacian language. This list also includes a Bessian plant name and a Moesian plant name, neighboring Daco-Thracian tribes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dacian_plant_names

[Carlin]

The Edinburgh Magazine and Literary Miscellany, Volume 94

https://books.google.ca/books?id=_uwRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA135&dq=Aristophanes+Illyrians&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FlkaUvOFKMi82gXnx4HoCw#v=onepage&q=Aristophanes%20Illyrians&f=false

The Scholiast of Aristophanes: "all the Illyrians are Thracians"

Page 135:

The identity of the Thracians and Illyrians is proved by the ancient writers applying, some the former, and others the latter of these epithets, to one and the same people. Thus the Dardanians, described as Illyrians by Strabo and Appian, are denominated Maesians, and, consequently, Thracians, by Dion Cassius; while the Triballi, whom the ancients generally classed among the Thracians, are named Illyrians by Aristophanes and Livy. The Scholiast of Aristophanes, in illustration of a passage in the Clouds, says expressly, that "all the Illyrians are Thracians." Adelung divides the great primitive nation of the Thracians into three principal branches, the Illyrian, the Pelasgic, and the Hellenic.