Was there a revolt in Macedonia in 1739?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3820

    Was there a revolt in Macedonia in 1739?

    Here's an interesting book I found. The author is John Cook M.D.




    Here's a link to his book http://books.google.com/books?id=0vg...result#PPP8,M1 It was published in 1770.

    If you do a search of the word "greek" in his book you will see that it always matches next to the words "religion" or "church" hence the term "greek" meant christian of the orthodox faith. Clearly he seperates Macedonia from "greece" as well as makes note to write of the Macedonian physician and Macedonian christians.

    My real question though is what the Macedonian physician said true? I have not seen anything about an insurrection in 1739.

    What are your opinions of the text above?
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
  • Daskalot
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 4345

    #2
    The TruthMacedonian does it again!
    Macedonian Truth Organisation

    Comment

    • Risto the Great
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 15659

      #3
      And let it be said that the Russians soon thereafter helped liberate Greece.
      Who knows how significant this recount may have been in altering Russian perception of the Balkans.
      Risto the Great
      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13675

        #4
        It is an extremely interesting and important period in Macedonian history full of revolts and tales of bravery, which deserves alot more attention than it has been given thus far. Here are some events in chronological order:


        During the 1680's the Austrians did battle against the Turks and encouraged the local population under Ottoman rule to revolt. Their declarations were addressed to the Christians of "Albania, Servia, Mysia, Bulgaria, Silistria, Illyria, Macedonia and Rashka", and the Macedonians appear most emboldened by the events. Parts of the region errupted in rebellion, the most notable in Macedonia being led by Karposh the "King of Kumanovo", as another declaration by the Emperor Leopold of Austria spoke about "two Macedonians, Marko Kraida born in Kozhani and Dimitri Georgi Popovic, born in Macedonian Salonika, have told us that the Macedonian people, with respect for our most righteous task......". Unfortunately, the rebellion was short-lived as the Turks captured and executed Karposh while regaining control of the Macedonian regions.

        During the early 1700's the Russians had their turn at war against the Turks, this time in Wallachia and Moldavia, where they enjoyed the support of the local Romanians. The Turks won the battle and as a form of punishment against the Romanians they instated the Phanariot Hospodars in Wallachia and Moldavia.

        It is very likely that another local uprising in Macedonia took place in 1739, as the battle between the Turks and the European Powers continued intermittently, while the Macedonian population had shown itself quite welcoming to revolt.


        In the eighteenth century, the Ottomans fought a series of wars with European powers. Between 1714 and 1718, they fought with the small country of Venice; between 1736 and 1739, they fought with Austria and Russia in order to stop the expansion of these powers into Muslim territories.
        As the article at the beginning of the thread states, after the peace treaty with the European Powers the Turks inflicted severe damage on the Macedonians, which prompted some of the first signs of emigration into Austria and Russia. Several Christians of the Ottoman Empire made requests for emigration to Russia, and in the year 1751 these requests were granted to Macedonians, Serbs, Vlachs and Bulgarians.

        The following year in 1752 infantry regiments were established within the Russian army which were divided according to nationality, described in a Russian royal edict as the "Orthodox Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian and Vlach peoples.

        In the year 1757 Montenegrin Metropolitan Vasilije Petrovic wrote a letter to the Russian Count Shuvalov expressing the feelings of the Albanians, Macedonians, Bosnians, Serbs and Bulgarians, who viewed Russia as the great Orthodox Slavic power and their saviour from the Turks.

        During these turbulent times the Greek-speaking Romans appear to be missing from most if not all of these rebellions, and instead of joining their Christian brothers in revolt they were forging closer ties with the Ottoman Turks. That the Turks showed favour to these Greek-speaking Romans as a result of the latter's obedience (and greed for control among Christians) is evident in two things above all - Phanariot domination in Wallachia and Moldavia, and the forced cessation of Romanian and Slavic-speaking church liturgy and schools during the 1760's in the Balkans.

        The Macedonians were quite brave and lively even after these events during the 1780's when they were met by Baron De Tott, who speaks of "twenty-two Macedonians, each with his musket on his shoulder, went thither, and met in a tavern, where they sang the victories of Alexander".
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15659

          #5
          Excellent SoM.
          It did not occur to me how the Macedonians, Serbs etc lost favour in the administrative class of the Ottoman empire. It appears the only friend of the Turk was the Greek. How utterly amusing.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13675

            #6
            The friendship between Turk and Greek-speaker goes back to the late East Roman and early Ottoman days. While figures like King Marko in Macedonia and many other Slavic-speaking rulers in the Balkans became Ottoman vassals after their submission or defeat against the Turks, they retained the right to a certain measure of self-rule in their respective realms. With the Ottoman takeover the Greek-speakers seemed most concerned with securing a position of privilege above their fellow Christians, by any means possible. They became quite close with the Turks, a friendship that would last (in Ottoman-held territory at least) even after the creation of the Bavarian Kingdom in Morea.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Spartan
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1037

              #7
              The Greeks though were the first to gain Independance from the Ottomans of all these states. Also, in the Pelloponese, in the month following there decleration of Independence from the Turk (1821 I think) the Turks and Albanians(mostly turks) of Morea were all slaughtered-men, women and kids. Some estimate 40 000 within a few weeks.
              Whatever 'bond' that may have existed between Greek and Turk was long gone by this time.
              All that was left was hate that exists til this day....
              Also, there was more than a few rebellions in the south Morea before 1821

              Peloponnese
              British historian W. Alison Phillips, who wrote the history of the Greek revolution, noted in 1897:

              Everywhere, as though at a preconcerted signal, the peasantry rose, and massacred all the Turks—men, women and children—on whom they could lay hands. In the Morea shall no Turk be left. Nor in the whole wide world. Thus rang the song which, from mouth to mouth, announced the beginning of a war of extermination... Within three weeks of the outbreak of the revolt, not a Moslem was left, save those who had succeeded in escaping into the towns.[2]

              According to another historian of the Greek revolt, William St. Clair, upwards of twenty thousand Turkish men, women and children were killed by their Greek neighbors in a few weeks of slaughter.[3] William St. Clair also argued that: "with the beginning of the revolt, the bishops and priests exhorted their parishioners to exterminate infidel Moslems."[4] St. Clair wrote:

              The Turks of Greece left few traces. They disappeared suddenly and finally in the spring of 1821 unmourned and unnoticed by the rest of the world....It was hard to believe then that Greece once contained a large population of Turkish descent, living in small communities all over the country, prosperous farmers, merchants, and officials, whose families had known no other home for hundreds of years...They were killed deliberately, without qualm or scruple, and there was no regrets either then or later.[5]

              Atrocities toward the Turkish civilian population inhabiting the Peloponnese had started in the Achaia on the 28th of March, just with the beginning of the Greek revolt.[6] On the 2nd of April, the outbreak became general over the whole of Peloponnese and on that day many Turks were murdered in different places.[7] On the third of April 1821, the Turks of Kalavryta surrendered upon promises of security which were afterwards violated.[8] Followingly, massacres ensued against the Turkish civilians in the towns of Peloponnese that the Greek revolutionnaries had captured.

              The Turks in Monemvasia, weakened by the famine opened the gates of the city, and laid down their weapons. Six hundred of them had already gone on board the brigs,when the Mainotes burst into the town and started murdering all those who had not yet reached to the shore or those who had chosen to stay in the town.[9] Those on the ships meanwhile were stripped of their clothes, beaten and left on a desolate rock in the Aegean, instead of being deported to Asia Minor as promised. Only a few of them were saved by a French merchant, called M. Bonfort.

              The worst Greek atrocity in terms of the numbers of victims involved was the massacre following the Fall of Tripolitsa in 1822. Up to 30,000 Turks had been killed in Tripolitsa:

              For three days the miserable inhabitants were given over to lust and cruelty of a mob of savages. Neither sex nor age was spared. Women and children were tortured before being put to death. So great was the slaughter that Kolokotronis himself says that, from the gate to the citadel his horse’s hoofs never touched the ground. His path of triumph was carpeted with corpses. At the end of two days, the wretched remnant of the Mussulmans were deliberately collected, to the number of some two thousand souls, of every age and sex, but principally women and children, were led out to a ravine in the neighboring mountains and there butchered like cattle.[10]

              Although the total estimates of the casualties vary, the Turkish, Moslem Albanian and Jewish population of the Peloponnese had ceased to exist as a settled community.[1] Some estimates of the Turkish and Muslim Albanian civilian deaths by the rebels range from 15,000 out of 40,000 Muslim residents[11] to 30,000 only in Tripolitsa.[12] According to historians W.Alison Phillips, George Finlay, William St. Clair and Barbara Jelavich, massacres of Turkish civilians started simultaneously with the outbreak of the revolt,[13][14][4][15] while Harris J. Booras and David Brewer wrote that the massacres followed the brutal hanging of Ecumenical Patriarch Gregory V of Constantinople.[16][17]

              Historian George Finlay claimed that the extermination of the Muslims in the rural districts was the result of a premeditated design and it proceeded more from the suggestions of men of letters, than form the revengeful feelings of the people.[18] William St. Clair wrote that: "The orgy of genocide exhausted itself in the Peloponnese only when there were no more Turks to kill."[19]
              Now I am not trying in any way to downplay the Macedonian resistance to the Turk, but I dont believe ours should be either.
              Anyways, this chapter in our history is conveniently left out of our history curriculum in school.
              I learned of this 'black' chapter in Greek history from older family members, and followed it up by finding sources to prove this, of which there are many. I refused to believe it at first....
              Last edited by Spartan; 03-06-2009, 06:06 PM.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13675

                #8
                Greece was created first, in the same way Bulgaria was - without foreign intervention and a Germanic monarchy it never would have happened, at least not the way it eventually did. For the 'Hellenic' and 'Bulgarian' nations to arise the creation of a state (and separate church) was first necessary, in the case of the Macedonians, the consciousness came together even in the absence of these two crucial elements (and in the face of newly aspiring 'nations').

                Something on the Greek War of Independence:

                Humble beginnings lacking 'ethnic' validity Due to the assistance rendered by the Slavic and Latin speaking people to the Austrian and Russian powers against the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans during the 17th and 18th centuries, the interests of Greek-speakers and their Turkish rulers grew closer as the former was able to



                The Greco-Turk bonds continued to exist in Ottoman-held territory at least, as I stated earlier, and this is most evident (and ironically so) during the Greek struggle to usurp Macedonia. Check:

                Even Turkey has shown a more progressive attitude in relation to it's Kurdish minority than the Greeks. Note the similar tactics of denial .... Some analysts consider the new channel a sort of revolution for Turkey, considering that between 1983 and 1991 it was illegal to speak Kurdish.



                Originally posted by Spartan
                Also, there was more than a few rebellions in the south Morea before 1821
                What can you tell us about the events in the Peloponnese during the 1770's?
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Spartan
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1037

                  #9
                  I believe the Venetians took over the southern Morea from the turk for a short period of time, but it was before 1770 I think.
                  You must be talking about the Orlov revolt started/aided by the Russians?

                  Anyways, in Mani, rebellions were very common pre 1821, its just that they were restricted to a small area by few people, and therefore get little attention. There are sources though that mention it.

                  My point is just that we fought too, and gave the turk a partial genocide to prove it...(in the south)
                  In the north, I agree and believe that the Greeks worked with the Turk to 'de-Macedonianize' the area...
                  Last edited by Spartan; 03-06-2009, 06:33 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13675

                    #10


                    The Orlov Revolt (1770) was a precursor to the Greek War of Independence (1821), which saw a Greek uprising in the Peloponnese at the instigation of Count Orlov, commander of the Russian Naval Forces of the Russo-Turkish War.
                    In 1769, during the Russo-Turkish War, a fleet of 14 warships commanded by count Aleksey Grigoryevich Orlov sailed from the Baltic Sea for the Mediterranean. The fleet reached Mani in February 1770, prompting the Maniots to raise their war flags. 50 Russian soldiers remained to help fight in the ground war, while the fleet sailed on to the Aegean Sea.
                    From the Russian point of view, Count Orlov's mission was a success, damaging the Turkish Fleet, directing Turkish troops south, and contributing to the victory that led to the signing of the Treaty of Kuchuk-Kainarji.

                    From the Greek point of view, the affair was a failure which cost a huge number of lives (both in battle, and in the Turkish reprisals that followed).
                    It seems that in Greek history this event can be (questionably) viewed as Russia's efforts in support of some local 'cause', but in actual fact it looks more like Russia's attempt to gain favour with locals in the Mediterranean for the purpose of securing one small area in the much larger theatre of war against the Turks.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Spartan
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1037

                      #11
                      Even so, it was Greek blood that was spilled, and Greek blood that flowed to free the Pelloponese. Although I will concede that some of the Great powers may have given us the 'push' we needed to start the sequence of events that ensued.

                      50 Russians, pfft, what kind of contribution is that!? lol
                      50 Spartans(ancient of course), and then we're talking 'contribution'.... lol

                      Love the dialogue SoM, keep it coming my friend
                      You will slowly turn me into a very sharp debator at this pace....
                      (dont worry though, you wont regret it my friend )

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13675

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Spartan
                        Even so, it was Greek blood that was spilled, and Greek blood that flowed to free the Pelloponese.
                        Albanian, Vlach and Slav blood also, as the driving idea behind the Greek War of Independence was Christian liberation against Islamic oppression, not the liberty of a 'Hellenic' nation. This means that all Christians living in the region were enticed to fight.
                        Although I will concede that some of the Great powers may have given us the 'push' we needed to start the sequence of events that ensued.
                        Not only a push at the commencement, but their activity for the duration and most importantly conclusion was crucial to the success of the rebellion. Just how crucial their input was, when compared to that of the Christian peasants (or whatever ilk) on the ground or the Albanian and Greek-speaking leaders, is evidenced in the fact that the London Conference of 1830 (which concluded hostilities) did not consist of a single representative from the newly liberated territory. The borders were drawn up and a decision on a monarch to be agreed upon at a later date - Not a single leader of the rebellion was consulted during the process.
                        Love the dialogue SoM, keep it coming my friend
                        You will slowly turn me into a very sharp debator at this pace....
                        No problem brother, the more we debate the more fat we cut off from the mass of information, which will result in a lean version and depiction of events as close to the truth as possible.

                        We wont always agree with each other, but we can always learn from one another.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • TrueMacedonian
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 3820

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                          It is an extremely interesting and important period in Macedonian history full of revolts and tales of bravery, which deserves alot more attention than it has been given thus far. Here are some events in chronological order:


                          During the 1680's the Austrians did battle against the Turks and encouraged the local population under Ottoman rule to revolt. Their declarations were addressed to the Christians of "Albania, Servia, Mysia, Bulgaria, Silistria, Illyria, Macedonia and Rashka", and the Macedonians appear most emboldened by the events. Parts of the region errupted in rebellion, the most notable in Macedonia being led by Karposh the "King of Kumanovo", as another declaration by the Emperor Leopold of Austria spoke about "two Macedonians, Marko Kraida born in Kozhani and Dimitri Georgi Popovic, born in Macedonian Salonika, have told us that the Macedonian people, with respect for our most righteous task......". Unfortunately, the rebellion was short-lived as the Turks captured and executed Karposh while regaining control of the Macedonian regions.

                          During the early 1700's the Russians had their turn at war against the Turks, this time in Wallachia and Moldavia, where they enjoyed the support of the local Romanians. The Turks won the battle and as a form of punishment against the Romanians they instated the Phanariot Hospodars in Wallachia and Moldavia.

                          It is very likely that another local uprising in Macedonia took place in 1739, as the battle between the Turks and the European Powers continued intermittently, while the Macedonian population had shown itself quite welcoming to revolt.




                          As the article at the beginning of the thread states, after the peace treaty with the European Powers the Turks inflicted severe damage on the Macedonians, which prompted some of the first signs of emigration into Austria and Russia. Several Christians of the Ottoman Empire made requests for emigration to Russia, and in the year 1751 these requests were granted to Macedonians, Serbs, Vlachs and Bulgarians.

                          The following year in 1752 infantry regiments were established within the Russian army which were divided according to nationality, described in a Russian royal edict as the "Orthodox Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian and Vlach peoples.

                          In the year 1757 Montenegrin Metropolitan Vasilije Petrovic wrote a letter to the Russian Count Shuvalov expressing the feelings of the Albanians, Macedonians, Bosnians, Serbs and Bulgarians, who viewed Russia as the great Orthodox Slavic power and their saviour from the Turks.

                          During these turbulent times the Greek-speaking Romans appear to be missing from most if not all of these rebellions, and instead of joining their Christian brothers in revolt they were forging closer ties with the Ottoman Turks. That the Turks showed favour to these Greek-speaking Romans as a result of the latter's obedience (and greed for control among Christians) is evident in two things above all - Phanariot domination in Wallachia and Moldavia, and the forced cessation of Romanian and Slavic-speaking church liturgy and schools during the 1760's in the Balkans.

                          The Macedonians were quite brave and lively even after these events during the 1780's when they were met by Baron De Tott, who speaks of "twenty-two Macedonians, each with his musket on his shoulder, went thither, and met in a tavern, where they sang the victories of Alexander".

                          This is an excellent breakdown SoM. I love how everything just fell into place the way you described it. It all makes sense. And as far as the Macedonian troops in the Russian army go check this out;


                          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                          Comment

                          • TrueMacedonian
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 3820

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Spartan View Post
                            Even so, it was Greek blood that was spilled, and Greek blood that flowed to free the Pelloponese. Although I will concede that some of the Great powers may have given us the 'push' we needed to start the sequence of events that ensued.

                            50 Russians, pfft, what kind of contribution is that!? lol
                            50 Spartans(ancient of course), and then we're talking 'contribution'.... lol

                            Love the dialogue SoM, keep it coming my friend
                            You will slowly turn me into a very sharp debator at this pace....
                            (dont worry though, you wont regret it my friend )

                            I don't think there was any "greek" blood flowing from the Morea (as they called it then). The biggest and brightest of your war for independence were Albanians, Vlachs, and Slavs. It was the Great Powers that won the war for you. If it wasn't for the French the Albanian islands would have never have prospered as they did to give the war for independence its greatest assest. The Albanian sailors. That's in St.Claires book to.
                            In fact the so-called 'greek revolutionaries' were so wild about stealing and killing the Great Powers installed many of their own generals and admirals to lead the "greeks" to victory. When your best leader was Marko Botsaris (Marco Bocari) a bandit mountain warrior of Albanian origin then we know exactly why the Great Powers took the reins.
                            Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13675

                              #15
                              Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                              This is an excellent breakdown SoM. I love how everything just fell into place the way you described it. It all makes sense. And as far as the Macedonian troops in the Russian army go check this out;


                              In the article above, are the Macedonians fighting in the ranks of the Russians or the Ottoman Vizier?

                              This speaks of events during Orlov's activities in the Peloponnese (1770).
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X