The Ancient Macedonian Language

[Amphipolis]

So I found it. It comes from Strategicon written by Kekaumenos in 1075 AD. The exact phrase is "and the general in the Bulgarian dialect is called Tzelnikos (Τζελνίκος)".

It is in page 28, verse 14 (page 50 of the pdf file of the link)

https://smerdaleos.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/162045014-cecaumeni-strategicon-kekaumenos.pdf

About the author:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kekaumenos

[Philosopher]

So I found it. It comes from Strategicon written by Kekaumenos in 1075 AD. The exact phrase is "and the general in the Bulgarian dialect is called Tzelnikos (Τζελνίκος)".

That phrase "Bulgarian dialect" is problematic for a number of reasons. No Western scholar disputes that the original Bulgars spoke a Asiatic language.

It is only when this people came to the Balkans that they adopted Slavic.

The specific Slavic dialect the Bulgars adopted is south eastern Slavic, which means they did not adopt the south western Slavic of the Serbs.

Herein lies the problem.

Who were these people from whom the Bulgars adopted Slavic?

They obviously were not Bulgars.

So who were they?

Scholars would have us believe they were Slavs, the descendants of migrating Slavs.

But this does not resolve the question. We need to know the name of the people who spoke this specific dialect as opposed to south western Slavic.

Even if we were to grant the scholarly position in this matter, we still have a problem with "Bulgarian dialect", because it is not a "Bulgarian dialect", but originally rather some unnamed Slavic peoples' dialect.

To call it "Macedonian dialect" is a no-no for scholars, because the ancient Macedonians are believed to have either spoken Greek or ceased to exist.

And this is the central problem.

[Amphipolis]

This Tselniku argument (by Donski) is extensively discussed here (actually more extensively than it should) by Bolaris.

http://macedonianissues.blogspot.gr/2010/06/macedonian-names-and-makedonski-pseudo_20.html

That is in English, it is very long and goes to many directions but it also has pictures and touches relevant issues you may find interesting.


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[Philosopher]

This Tselniku argument (by Donski) is extensively discussed here (actually more extensively than it should) by Bolaris.

http://macedonianissues.blogspot.gr/2010/06/macedonian-names-and-makedonski-pseudo_20.html

That is in English, it is very long and goes to many directions but it also has pictures and touches relevant issues you may find interesting.


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Not sure who your comments are directed to, but I will add a few thoughts.

1. It is hard to take seriously a website devoted to slandering another people with long disproven theories about the origin of modern day Macedonians.

2. It is hard to take seriously a website devoted to spreading the long disproven theory that "language equates ethnicity".

3. It is hard to take seriously a website devoted to ignoring all of the historical documents from Greek, Roman, and Afro-Asiaitc writers that clearly separate Macedonians and Greeks into separate ethnicities.

4. It is hard to take seriously a website devoted to ignoring the obvious fact that Macedonian cannot be a Bulgarian dialect, as the Bulgarians adopted this dialect from Macedonians.

5. It is hard to take seriously a website devoted to spreading the long disproven theory that Macedonians are Bulgarians.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

Alright, so this is the earliest attestation that has yet been found. This doesn't completely settle the case. After all, have words such as Γαβαλάν, Άκρέα, Γάρκαν, and Ίζέλα been found on Macedonian writings before Hesychius wrote his lexicon? We know that the ancient Macedonian word for head was Γαβαλάν, which is more like Slavic words than anything, yet from what I have found, "keble/kebale" are words commonly found in inscriptions from the region of Macedonia whenever such a word is present. So "Tshelniku" may have actually existed well before it was recorded. In any case, as Philosopher pointed out, it is rather difficult to take such a website seriously when it is more focused on attacking Donski and laughing at his arguments, rather than providing unambiguous proof that his entire theories are incorrect. I will admit, some of them are "pulled out of a hat," but others actually have credence.

[Amphipolis]

We know that the ancient Macedonian word for head was Γαβαλάν, which is more like Slavic words than anything, yet from what I have found, "keble/kebale" are words commonly found in inscriptions from the region of Macedonia whenever such a word is present.

I don't see how γαβαλά (gabala) is Slavic and I don't understand at all the second part of your sentence.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

I don't expect you to. But of course it is. Russians for example have Говола (γοβολα), which is more like γαβάλαν than it is like κεφάλη. In fact, many ancient Macedonian words are morr like Slavic that anything. This is just one of them.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

I've been following the Facebook page "Ancient Macedonian Language" more frequently. To re-cap, these are the words I found on there earlier:

Anc. Mk. Slavic Translation
Γαβαλάν = Глава/Говола = Head
Source: Hesychius
Άκρέα = Ќерка = Daughter
Source: Hesychius
Κράββατος = Кревет = Bed
Source: I'm not certain. Some on-line glossary
Λειβήνος = Леј+Вино = Dionysus (but Slavic "pour + wine")
Source: Hesychius
Ζεμελο = Земла = Earth
Source: The book included in the collage.
Γάρκαν = Гранка = Branch
Source: Hesychius
Ίζέλα = Жела = Wish or Desire
Source: Hesychius
Κρεπiδης = Крепиди = Shoes (but Slavic "enclosures")
Source: Not certain.
Βεδυ = Вода = Water & Air (Slavic: only "water")
Source: Not certain, likely Clement of Alexandria
Γραβιον = Граб = Horn-beam (an oak tree)
Source: Amerias (a Macedonian lexographer)
Κλινοτροκον = Клен = Maple
Source: Amerias? or Hesychius

I'm interested about where the toponym Pella has been translated as "stone/rock." I know one line in Hesychius glossary reads "pella . lithos" but it doesn't mention that it is Macedonian at all. On the other hand, the German website that translates the toponym Pella says it means "valley, or field." It would be interesting if Hesychius glossary did have such an entry on Pella, since that would be perfectly cognate to the Slavic "Pole."

Paeonian toponyms:
Stobi/Stoboi related to Slavic "stolbovi" meaning "pillar"
Bylazora: apparently related to Slavic "bela + zora" (white + dawn).

[Amphipolis]

I will be busy for a while so I can't give a detailed answer for all of them, just focus on the wrong ones:

Λειβήνος = Леј+Вино = Dionysus (but Slavic "pour + wine")
Source: Hesychius
No, Hesychius speaks of the word above Leibinus, which is the word λειβηθρον and says there's also a town with this name in Macedonia (in Elicon).

Ζεμελο = Земла = Earth
Source: The book included in the collage.
No, I've no idea where this comes from, there's no such ancient word.

Γάρκαν = Гранка = Branch
Source: Hesychius
Ίζέλα = Жела = Wish or Desire
Source: Hesychius
Κρεπiδης = Крепиди = Shoes (but Slavic "enclosures")
Source: Not certain.
Γραβιον = Граб = Horn-beam (an oak tree)
Source: Amerias (a Macedonian lexographer)

All these DO exist, though there are minor mistakes in spelling, translation etc. I'll remember to add comments in the future.
See also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

Βεδυ = Вода = Water & Air (Slavic: only "water")
Source: Not certain, likely Clement of Alexandria
According to Clement of Alexandria this is of Phrygian origin and means water. I know it is very rare and appears only twice(!) in Greek literature, in one case it means water in the other case it means air.


Κλινοτροκον = Клен = Maple
Source: Amerias? or Hesychius
That is from Theophrastus who specifically says the name of this plant is sphendamon, some also call it zygia and around Stageira they call it Clinotrochon.



I'm interested about where the toponym Pella has been translated as "stone/rock." I know one line in Hesychius glossary reads "pella . lithos" but it doesn't mention that it is Macedonian at all. On the other hand, the German website that translates the toponym Pella says it means "valley, or field." It would be interesting if Hesychius glossary did have such an entry on Pella, since that would be perfectly cognate to the Slavic "Pole."

Yes, Pella means stone in Greek and it is in Hesychius.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

I find it funny that you suggest we bother to look at the Wikipedia page on the language. Of course, you do realize that it has a very obvious Greek bias, so it's not surprising that you shared it. Also, the word "pella" may mean "rock or stone," but it is not just Greek. It's cognate to the dialectic "spila" in Macedonian. In any case, the "misspellings" that you speak of are actually not misspelled. I have seen those words in their original form in Hesychius Glossary. As for Βεδυ, it is both in Phrygian and in Macedonian. The Macedonians also worshipped a god called Βεδυ who represented the air. Lastly, Klinotrokon was ancient Macedonian. After all, that town is in Macedonia. In any case, I'm more interested to see where Heinrich Tischner saw the translation of Pella as "valley or field."

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

Alright, so I found the website on ancient Macedonian where Tischner translates "Pella" as "valley or field." It's interesting how it includes a lengthy glossary of the language.

http://www.heinrich-tischner.de/22-sp/1sprach/aegaeis/mak-a.htm

He also groups it among the Anatolian branch of languages with Lydian and Phrygian.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

A newly discovered Macedonian god?

Recently I have been searching for more and more information on the deities that the ancient Macedonians worshiped. I came across an article on a website called "Ancient Origins"
(link: http://www.ancient-origins.net).
The article discusses research conducted by a team consisting of Paolo Debertolis, Aristotel Tentov, Domagoj Nikolić, Goran Marjanović, Heikki Savolainen, Nina Earl, and published by Derek Cunningham. According to the research team's interpretation of the geoglyph, it is read as "Се (Se)." They claim that in the ancient religion, the God "Se" was the Creator of the Universe to the Macedonians. If so, his name literally translates as "Everything" in modern Macedonian.

Here's the url of the article:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/astronomical-alignment-geoglyph-republic-macedonia-020170

Let me know what you guys think.

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

I recently came across an entry in Hesychius Glossary similar to "Pella" and also said to be Macedonian. It says the following:

Πελλήν (Macedones) * + Κούφην, καί φαιάν τώ χρώματι

Does anyone know what "Πελλήν (Macedones) * + Κούφην, καί φαιάν τώ χρώματι" means?

[Nikolaj]

Recently I have been searching for more and more information on the deities that the ancient Macedonians worshiped. I came across an article on a website called "Ancient Origins"
(link: http://www.ancient-origins.net).
The article discusses research conducted by a team consisting of Paolo Debertolis, Aristotel Tentov, Domagoj Nikolić, Goran Marjanović, Heikki Savolainen, Nina Earl, and published by Derek Cunningham. According to the research team's interpretation of the geoglyph, it is read as "Се (Se)." They claim that in the ancient religion, the God "Se" was the Creator of the Universe to the Macedonians. If so, his name literally translates as "Everything" in modern Macedonian.

Here's the url of the article:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/astronomical-alignment-geoglyph-republic-macedonia-020170

Let me know what you guys think.

The translation is irrefutable, but how can we know their interpretation is accurate? What was their methodology?

[George S.]

pretty amazing sight.Amazing what people did thousands of years ago and what they knew about the cosmos.