Greek General Demetrios Kallergis on who fought the Turks (1860)

[Soldier of Macedon]

You seem to think that somehow modern ethnic Macedonians built Greece based on a single assumption you made today........

Nobody here has suggested such a thing, that is just a deliberate distortion to suit the argument your trying to reply with. It's rather simplistic and outdated.

As I already proved the term Macedonian had many definitions.......

There are some cases where terms currently used in the Balkans have meant different things at different times in the past, and that includes the term Albanian. Your automatic assumption about the reference to Macedonians fighting the Turks in Greece in the original source is based on your biased presumption against the Macedonian identity. You previously stated "at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups", yet you've failed to answer two simple questions in relation to that statement:

1 - How many sources are there from pre 1860 Greece in which the Vlachs are referred to as Macedonians?

2 - How did the Vlachs contribute in the fighting during the war which led to the creation of a modern Greek state/entity?

[Orfej]

Did I ever say Grenzers=Greeks? No

This is what you said:

That's a personal website and while I'm willing to accept that it also included ethnic Macedonians a scholarly source would be more reliable. On the other hand at the time of its foundation it included only Albanianshttp://books.google.com/books?id=uUw...one%22&f=false, but later Hungarians and Greeks enrolled toohttp://www.flickr.com/photos/28981624@N02/3740770183/

So you claimed that Greeks were included in the regiment and you provided a ''source'' for it. The problem is that there is no mentioning of the Greeks in that source, just Hungarians and Grenzers/Croats! My assumption is that you tried to manipulate us to think that Grenzers = Greeks. Maybe i'm wrong, maybe you posted the link because you liked the photo in it!

On the other hand the Macedonovlachs source and the fact that both I and Voltron explained to you the context which is quite simple for anyone who knows the basics of modern Greek, doesn't stop you from claiming stuff that simply don't exist. You seem to think that somehow modern ethnic Macedonians built Greece based on a single assumption you made today

No, that's not what i seem to think. What i seem to think is that you made a claim (that the term ''Macedonian'' used by Kalergis actually meant ''Vlach'') which you miserably failed to support with proofs. We know that the term ''Macedonian'' just like the terms ''Greek'',''Hellene'', ''Bulgarian'',''Albanian'' had many meanings. You didn't needed the stupid mentioning of the Royal Macedonian regiment to tell us that. But the term ''Macedonian'' was not used by Greeks to denote Vlachs as a people. If you want to convince us otherwise then show us some proofs where Greeks used the term ''Macedonian'' for the Vlachs, since we our not aware of such practice. Don't hide behind terms like ''Macedonovlachs'' which are essentially different from simply ''Macedonian''.

[Droog]

The link was about the Hungarians and I had to go into detail about the terms because some of you couldn't realize that terms have different meanings

[TrueMacedonian]

The link was about the Hungarians and I had to go into detail about the terms because some of you couldn't realize that terms have different meanings

Same as we showed you that the term 'Albanian' could mean different things as well.

[TrueMacedonian]

I cited the historian V. Stojchev, I haven't made up such claim.

The name of Marko Bochvarot is evidenced in other sources also, there are still living persons bearing that name in today Macedonia.
There are also other Komiti bearing that name and there are few Macedonian folksongs about it.

Try by searching Bocvarot, Bochvarot, Бочварот.

Also Google books:

http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&q=is+evidenced+in+other+sources+also&wrapid=tlif130332783173610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp#sclient=psy&hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=cffa9a2a3c6bffd0

http://www.google.pl/search?hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&q=is+evidenced+in+other+sources+also&wrapid=tlif130332783173610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp#sclient=psy&hl=pl&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENPL321&tbm=bks&source=hp&q=Bochvarot&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&fp=cffa9a2a3c6bffd0

However, the point of Kallergis stands for it.

Bratot I want to apologize to you and state you are definitely correct here. http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks...G=Search+Books

Apparently the 19th century writer Robert Cyprien had wrote the following:

One of the Slavs, Botchar , born in Vodina(Voden), emigrated to Mount Soulion, became famous throughout Europe as the Greek Botzaris.

Indeed this is a source, however, not sure how accurate a source it is. Botchar, or Bochvar, may be a totally different person than Botsaris.

[Bratot]

Please TM, you don't have to apologize for anything.

I have found this information in many Macedonian and Bulgarian history books in the google links I provided, if you go thoroughly the next pages of the searching results you will see for yourself.

According to these several books, Marko Bochvarot was born in Voden.

In your other thread about the Macedonian participants in Greek Revolution it says that Marko formed strong 'cheta' of Macedonian "Slavs" who followed him after the failure of Negush uprising.

Maybe it's coincidence but it can be clear indication that Marko was close with our people(one of us) and actively collaborated during the general strugle against the Turks.

[ennea]

If you take into account the relations of Kallergis with Albanian (in fact even his wife was Albanian) and Aromanian leaders the conclusion becomes unavoidable.

His wife was the famous Sophia Renti, daughter of Theocharakis Rentis. What makes you say she was Albanian?

[TrueMacedonian]

His wife was the famous Sophia Renti, daughter of Theocharakis Rentis. What makes you say she was Albanian?

What makes you think that she wasn't?

[ennea]

Rentis was a very important, rich and powerful family. It’s easy to find lots of information about them (including their whole family tree).
Both Kallergis and Rentis families were considered noble, aristocratic families linked to royal or important families of 10th-13th Century respectively.
So, it’s either Droog made a mistake, or if I’m missing some source that considers them Arvanites, I would just like to see it.

[TrueMacedonian]

Rentis was a very important, rich and powerful family. It’s easy to find lots of information about them (including their whole family tree).
Both Kallergis and Rentis families were considered noble, aristocratic families linked to royal or important families of 10th-13th Century respectively.
So, it’s either Droog made a mistake, or if I’m missing some source that considers them Arvanites, I would just like to see it.

Provide us with some of these sources. Phanariot families made similar claims but we know now that those claims were bogus.

[Pelister]

Nobody here has suggested such a thing, that is just a deliberate distortion to suit the argument your trying to reply with. It's rather simplistic and outdated.

There are some cases where terms currently used in the Balkans have meant different things at different times in the past, and that includes the term Albanian. Your automatic assumption about the reference to Macedonians fighting the Turks in Greece in the original source is based on your biased presumption against the Macedonian identity. You previously stated "at that time in Greece the term Macedonians was also used about Aromanians among other groups", yet you've failed to answer two simple questions in relation to that statement:

1 - How many sources are there from pre 1860 Greece in which the Vlachs are referred to as Macedonians?

2 - How did the Vlachs contribute in the fighting during the war which led to the creation of a modern Greek state/entity?

You could probably add:

How many sources are there of 'Greeks' explicitly referring to themselves as Macedonians?

None.

Can anyone identify a community of 'Greeks' anywhere inside Macedonia that also refer to themselves as a collective, by the adjective 'Macedonian'?

It doesn't exist.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Felt this was the best thread to share this as the Negus Uprising was mentioned.

Once again I have to link the picture due to being unable to upload it directly.

Was wondering if anyone could translate it? This is apparently the revolutionary flag utilised by the rebels during the rising:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Naoussa%2C_Macedonia_Revolution_flag_1822.JPG

[Amphipolis]

Was wondering if anyone could translate it? This is apparently the revolutionary flag utilised by the rebels during the rising:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._flag_1822.JPG

With this (sign), you (shall) win (Constantine the Great message)
Fight for faith and country (fatherland)

[Liberator of Makedonija]

With this (sign), you (shall) win (Constantine the Great message)
Fight for faith and country (fatherland)

Thank you, is it easily translated?

Would you say it's been reworked into Modern Greek?

[Amphipolis]

Thank you, is it easily translated?

Would you say it's been reworked into Modern Greek?

This is obviously based on Ypsilantis flag that used Phoenix and the first phrase (En Touto Nika) and had the second phrase (Mahou Yper Pisteos Kai patridos) as the title of his proclamation. You can see the original in the link.

The first phrase is from the times of Constantine the Great, it's in Ancient Greek or Hellenistic (Bible) Greek. The second phrase was written/signed by Ypsilantis (according to the link the real author was the liberal intellectual George Typaldos) and is, as the whole speech, in a semi-archaic language of the time.

http://sitalkisking.blogspot.gr/2011/03/blog-post.html