Greek General Demetrios Kallergis on who fought the Turks (1860)

[TrueMacedonian]

It was not uncommon at all to call Aromanians Macedonians, Macedonovlachs etc like for example in this 1818 work http://books.google.ro/books?id=VfhD...nische&f=false

The ethnonym Macedonian had of course many meanings as in the case of the King of Naples who styled his Albanian guard as the Royal Macedonian

http://www.realcasadiborbone.com/uk/archiviostorico/armi_01.htm

There was also the Royal Macedonia regiment, formed by Albanians and Macedonians wearing uniforms similar to their country’s clothes and a long and heavy sword hanging from their belt.
The two companies of Halberdiers of the Royal Palace – one in Naples and the other in Palermo – were equipped with a sword and a short halberd engraved with the coat of arms of the Bourbon family.

It seems that there actually were Macedonians in this regiment.

[Orfej]

In this case there are only two terms used(Albanians & Macedonians) and that's why we deal with them.

No Kallergis also uses the term ''real Greeks'' , The ones who ''were too degraded to even wish for liberty''. Who were these ''real Greeks'' that he mentions? If you have real Greeks doesn't that mean that there were also fake Greeks?

[Orfej]

http://www.realcasadiborbone.com/uk/...co/armi_01.htm



It seems that there actually were Macedonians in this regiment.

Bravo TrueMacedonian, it seems like Droog is keen on manipulating just to `prove` a point!

[Droog]

http://www.realcasadiborbone.com/uk/...co/armi_01.htm



It seems that there actually were Macedonians in this regiment.

That's a personal website and while I'm willing to accept that it also included ethnic Macedonians a scholarly source would be more reliable. On the other hand at the time of its foundation it included only Albanianshttp://books.google.com/books?id=uUw...one%22&f=false, but later Hungarians and Greeks enrolled toohttp://www.flickr.com/photos/28981624@N02/3740770183/, so regardless of its later composition the term Macedonian wasn't used in the modern sense

[TrueMacedonian]

That's a personal website and while I'm willing to accept that it also included ethnic Macedonians a scholarly source would be more reliable. On the other hand at the time of its foundation it included only Albanianshttp://books.google.com/books?id=uUw...one%22&f=false, but later Hungarians and Greeks enrolled toohttp://www.flickr.com/photos/28981624@N02/3740770183/, so regardless of its later composition the term Macedonian wasn't used in the modern sense

Maybe we should look into it further: http://www.realcasadiborbone.com/uk/...ione/index.htm

http://www.realcasadiborbone.it/uk/credits/index.htm

Credits

This Internet website is property of the Royal House of the Bourbon Two Sicilies and the Sacred Military Constantinian Order of St. George. Any reproduction, also partial, without prior written authorization is forbidden.
Design, realization and technical management:
Starfarm Internet Communications s.r.l.

Acknowledgements:

This site was realized thanks to the contribution of Prof. Massimo Viglione who wrote the historical part and collaborated in the drafting of the area on the Sacred Military Constantinian Order of St. George; the kind collaboration of Ambassador Antonio Benedetto Spada, who wrote the part on the Orders of Knighthood, and made available the relevant pictures; a special thank to Prof. Leonardo Saviano and Mr. Marco Cecilia.

If that doesn't suit you then here's a more objective source:


page 503

[Orfej]

That's a personal website and while I'm willing to accept that it also included ethnic Macedonians a scholarly source would be more reliable. On the other hand at the time of its foundation it included only Albanianshttp://books.google.com/books?id=uUw...one%22&f=false

The text says that the king of Naples was not pleased/had no reason to be pleased that Epirotes were enlisted in the Royal Macedonian regiment. It does not say that the Albanians were the ONLY ONES enlisted in the regiment at its foundation.

On the other hand the text says that these Epirotes/Albanians were ''capitani greci'' (Captains of the Greeks). What do you think the author meant by that?

, but later Hungarians and Greeks enrolled toohttp://www.flickr.com/photos/28981624@N02/3740770183/,

Lets see what the web page provided by Droog states:

The Neapolitan Royal Macedonian Regt taken from the Divisas Y Antiguedades document. (Naples' version of the Cloathing Book, made for the new Borbone monarch who would become Spain's Charles III.) The regt was awarded the "Royal" title for valour shown during the siege of Velletri, 1744. Many of its members were deserters from the Imperialists' Grenzer and Hungarian regts. The colours have not faded as much with this plate--red with blue distinctive colour.

Droog thinks that the sentence in bold means that the Greeks and Hungarians were also included in the regiment. Sorry Droog, but ''GRENZER'' has nothing to do with Greece. It was a Croatian regiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenz_infantry

PS: Droog still hadn't provided evidence where Vlachs are being labelled as Macedonians by some Greek author. So we must conclude that his previous claim was taken out of his arse.

[Droog]

Like I said I'm willing to accept sources, but the term Illyrians of that last source refers to Croats and since as I said before when the regiment was created it included only Albanians someone could say "so if Illyrian=Croat why should Macedonian=ethnic Macedonian and something else?"

[TrueMacedonian]

Anyways Droog steered this topic off-topic already so now we'll go back to Kallergis and who he was affiliated with:

According to this grk website (similar article in wikipedia for you wiki lovers out there) http://dimitrios-kallergis.co.tv/ Kallergis worked as an aide de camp under Giovanni Capo D'Istria then governor of grcija. And Capo D'Istria would later become the President of Bavarian King Otto's Grcija. Here's what he said about Macedonia:




His idea of natural borders for Grcija are quite different than what they are today.

[TrueMacedonian]

Like I said I'm willing to accept sources, but the term Illyrians of that last source refers to Croats and since as I said before when the regiment was created it included only Albanians someone could say "so if Illyrian=Croat why should Macedonian=ethnic Macedonian and something else?"

Droog what makes you think that "Albanians" even means ethnically Albanian???



Greece and the Balkans By Dēmētrēs Tziovas

[Droog]

Droog thinks that the sentence in bold means that the Greeks and Hungarians were also included in the regiment. Sorry Droog, but ''GRENZER'' has nothing to do with Greece. It was a Croatian regiment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenz_infantry

Did I ever say that Grenzer=Greek? No
Speaking of the regiment http://books.google.com/books?id=kv9...page&q&f=false when it was formed in 1592 it only had Albanians so obviously Macedonians=Macedonians in the modern sense

[Droog]

Droog what makes you think that "Albanians" even means ethnically Albanian???

Check the previous sources as you can see the Albanians of those sources were given settlements in the Abruzzo area. These settlements are still today part of the Albanian minority of Italy.

[Droog]

His idea of natural borders for Grcija are quite different than what they are today.

That's actually the school of thought that prevailed in Greece until Venizelos, who wanted the Greece of two continents and 5 seas(megali idea), while the previous politicians wanted of course the megali idea too but as the result of the self-determination of the people that inhabited those areas and not direct greek army involvement and that's why they excluded some regions many times

[Orfej]

Did I ever say that Grenzer=Greek? No

You claimed that there were Hungarian and Greek troops in the regiment and you offered this web page as a proof.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28981624@N02/3740770183/

In it we read the following:

Many of its members were deserters from the Imperialists' Grenzer and Hungarian regts.

Again you pathetically tried to manipulate us(for god knows which time).

Speaking of the regiment http://books.google.com/books?id=kv9...page&q&f=false when it was formed in 1592 it only had Albanians so obviously Macedonians=Macedonians in the modern sense

You also claimed the same for this book, BUT AS IT TURNED OUT YOU WERE LYING.

http://books.google.com/books?id=uUwOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA48&dq=%22Reggimento+Reale+Macedone%22&hl=en&ei=zk6wTYmXIcnqOfLRtKcJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22Reggimento%20Reale%20Macedone%22&f=false

Now you offer us another book where this ''fact'' can be read. You simply can't stop LYING! Is it pathological?

PS:You said that the term ''Macedonian'' was used to denote Albanians and as a proof you gave the Royal Macedonian regiment(which according to you was consisted only by Albanians in its foundation).Just to show how stupid is your reasoning i will make a parallel with the city of Macedonia in Ohio, USA

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&pq=macedonia+usa+plase&xhr=t&q=macedonia+ohio&cp=12&qe=bWFjZWRvbmlhIG9o&qesig=5uIu_gu568qLWnVkOM721Q&pkc=AFgZ2tmerLp66G1mkcSnFXiGwJXImKuBRaXapvUYowQL9EFPyqMZpd2DvqE-3xqvn6oSUaUJkM8e9wP1XIwDUEfMdjL6SMx6rg&client=firefox-a&hs=qXK&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Macedonia,+OH&ei=Gn2wTci9AcbDswaoxLz0Cw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ8gEwAA

Apparently this town in USA has/had no residents of Macedonian origin. So what should we conclude according to you? That the term ''Macedonian'' when the city was build was used to denote an American?

[Droog]

....

Did I ever say Grenzers=Greeks? No
I added the link next to Hungarians, so you can spare us your outburst(which is just that since you can't really prove anything). On the other hand the Macedonovlachs source and the fact that both I and Voltron explained to you the context which is quite simple for anyone who knows the basics of modern Greek, doesn't stop you from claiming stuff that simply don't exist. You seem to think that somehow modern ethnic Macedonians built Greece based on a single assumption you made today, but let's assume just for a sec that Kallergis means ethnic Macedonians. So which are these ethnic Macedonian heroes/benefactors that build modern Greece(the era this was written was about or prior to 1860 iirc)? I want names, sources and facts. This isn't the Macedonian struggle, but a case related primarily if not exclusively to southern Greece.

[TrueMacedonian]

Check the previous sources as you can see the Albanians of those sources were given settlements in the Abruzzo area. These settlements are still today part of the Albanian minority of Italy.

If we go by your train of thought why should we take those sources at face value when we know that the term 'Albanian' can mean something other than an ethnicity? Or should we just continue to avoid the fact that neither you nor Voltron have provided us with something from grk sources of that time that stipulate Macedonian just meant Vlach?

Back to the original topic on hand, which seems to be getting constantly veered off the road due to obvious reasons,

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1858