The Rosetta Stone

[Vangelovski]

So much VENOM against MACEDONIANS but very little against western "scholarship"

That's a little hypocritical for you isn't it Indigen?

[indigen]

That's a little hypocritical for you isn't it Indigen?

It was late and I left out a qualifier that would prevent critical misinterpretation and good of you to pick up on it. It should read as Macedonians who are attempting to define a Macedonian perspective on Macedonian history rather than the foreign imposed one that holds currency at present, both domestically in Mk and internationally.

Secondly, if we are going to pick up on such points, where does that leave you (and for that matter, even the MTOI), with your young earth creationists ideology, in relation to objectivity when you criticise Iljov on some of his claims?

Lastly, I am not saying Tentov or Iljov are right in everything they say or do and I don't go around using their contested discoveries as arguments in the fight for our Macedonian Cause but I don't see them as enemies, as some here appear to turn them into. In the scheme of things, I would like to see the venom and ideological energy used to attack Iljov, Tentov and each other in the MTO "debates" of 'for or against evolution/creation (young earth type)' directed to greater ideological purpose - changing the status quo in MK and opposing the international deconstruction agendas aimed at our demise.

So pocit,
I.

[Vangelovski]

It was late and I left out a qualifier that would prevent critical misinterpretation and good of you to pick up on it. It should read as Macedonians who are attempting to define a Macedonian perspective on Macedonian history rather than the foreign imposed one that holds currency at present, both domestically in Mk and internationally.

Secondly, if we are going to pick up on such points, where does that leave you (and for that matter, even the MTOI), with your young earth creationists ideology, in relation to objectivity when you criticise Iljov on some of his claims?

Lastly, I am not saying Tentov or Iljov are right in everything they say or do and I don't go around using their contested discoveries as arguments in the fight for our Macedonian Cause but I don't see them as enemies, as some here appear to turn them into. In the scheme of things, I would like to see the venom and ideological energy used to attack Iljov, Tentov and each other in the MTO "debates" of 'for or against evolution/creation (young earth type)' directed to greater ideological purpose - changing the status quo in MK and opposing the international deconstruction agendas aimed at our demise.

So pocit,
I.

I've never criticised "western academia" or the scientific method, rather I practice exactly what it preaches and that is to critically question the available evidence and point out where it is lacking, while accepting it when it is compelling

[indigen]

Originally Posted by indigen

So much VENOM against MACEDONIANS [who are attempting to define a Maceodonian perspective on Macedonian history] but very little against western "scholarship", which nearly ALL of it (or 99.9% of them) clearly and FRAUDULENTLY DENY THAT WE HAVE ANY CONNECTION with indigenous Macedonians (i.e. ancient Macedonians) and that we are "Slavs" who came there as settlers n 6th century AD or later.

This is a statement of fact and all Macedonians should be acutely aware that our history (and destiny) is in our hands.

A good example of a people defining their own cause, destiny and history against ALL odds is the ERITREAN struggle for national liberation! This is one of the most inspiring national liberation struggles in modern history and where its enemies were Ethiopia, 20 times bigger in population, with a claim to their territory and history, backed and armed by the Soviet camp and politically supported by the USA, and other regional powers. Eritrea liberated itself in the early 1990s after a long and arduous national revolutionary peoples struggle. The Eritreans did not wait for westerners (or Soviets and Co) to validate their version of national history (they would still be waiting if that were the case!) but wrote and defined their own as it suited their national cause.

[indigen]

I've never criticised "western academia" or the scientific method, rather I practice exactly what it preaches and that is to critically question the available evidence and point out where it is lacking, while accepting it when it is compelling

That is not how it looks to me, mate, but lets leave it out of this thread!

[Vangelovski]

That is not how it looks to me, mate, but lets leave it out of this thread!

Well, you need to do more than just have a superficial look at it. You need to do some background research and then take a detailed look at the evidence provided.

I haven't commented much on the Rosetta Stone controversy because I don't have the time to do the necessary foundational research into a) linguistics and b) the specific languages on, and history of, the Rosetta Stone itself. But from the information provided by Tentov, it appears that he hasn't either. Even from a cursory look, it is obvious that there are some massive gaps in their work.

[Risto the Great]

Eritrea liberated itself in the early 1990s after a long and arduous national revolutionary peoples struggle. The Eritreans did not wait for westerners (or Soviets and Co) to validate their version of national history (they would still be waiting if that were the case!) but wrote and defined their own as it suited their national cause.

Clearly they wanted it. Good on them.
I consulted a client who came from there. I believe he said ERITREA means Red Sea in Ancient Greek as an interesting aside.

[Risto the Great]

There's an expression in my dialect of Slovak, "patilo". It cannot be translated into any language I encountered so far, perhaps some idiom exists but I am not aware of it. This expression fits Macedonians perfectly. I unfortunately cannot describe it in right terms without getting misunderstood.

Who really cares Slovak?
Just speak Serbian and English. Serbian for the country you live in and English as an international language. Nations mean nothing to you therefore you should willingly throw away your little lost Slovak culture and language and move forward into the United States of Oneworld. Knock yourself out and come back when you become a European.

[indigen]

Well, you need to do more than just have a superficial look at it. You need to do some background research and then take a detailed look at the evidence provided.

I haven't commented much on the Rosetta Stone controversy because I don't have the time to do the necessary foundational research into a) linguistics and b) the specific languages on, and history of, the Rosetta Stone itself. But from the information provided by Tentov, it appears that he hasn't either. Even from a cursory look, it is obvious that there are some massive gaps in their work.

I can not comment because I am not really looking into it but neither Tentov nor Iljov get any look in in the national educational curriculum in Mk, which teaches that Macedonians are "Slavs" who settled there from around 6th century AD as settlers and I don't see any real (and effective) agitation against this fallacy. The same fallacy held by those international scholars that are supposed to give "objective peer reviews" of anything challenging this. It looks like it would be a hard nut to crack regardless of what the evidence was, IMO, because of the vested geopolitical interests involved.

[indigen]

Clearly they wanted it. Good on them.
I consulted a client who came from there. I believe he said ERITREA means Red Sea in Ancient Greek as an interesting aside.

So are a whole bunch of other names, as is the case with many names and labels used in the Macedonian Peninsula (aka Balkans) as well. Eritrea emerged after 90 years of separate development under Italian colonial rule, which then became a British protectorate following WWII. The British then, in their usual style, created a political bloody mess and left a legacy of a long war. It was after armed national liberation and a plebiscite on independence and self-determination that the war was ended and Eritrea was accepted as a sovereign state on the international scene. I don't know of any other liberation movement that had over 90 working (captured Soviet) tanks in its arsenal as the EPLF did have.

The Italians created the colony of Eritrea in the 19th century around Asmara, and named it with its current name. After World War II Eritrea was annexed to Ethiopia. In 1991 the Eritrean People's Liberation Front defeated the Ethiopian government. Eritrea officially celebrated its 1st anniversary of independence on May 24, 1992. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Eritrea

I knew a fair bit about the Eriteians and their struggle during 1980s and early 1990s from personal contact with their activists in Australia and reading some of their literature about their cause.

[Risto the Great]

Quite inspirational.
If only ......

[Soldier of Macedon]

Whilst I am strongly against Macedonia's antiquisation.......

Rita, can you define what you mean by "antiquisation" and what exactly you object to?

So much VENOM against MACEDONIANS but very little against western "scholarship"........

You obviously don't read the forum too well. There are countless examples where we have spoken against certain aspects of western scholarship and deconstructed their arguments. Macedonians are not exempt from such criticism.

Secondly, a Macedonian hating (self-hating) Slavoman is no better, IMHO, than an anti-Macedonian Grk, Grkoman, Bulgar, Bulgaroman, Serb, Srboman, Gheg/UCK or a Cryptoman of a whatever variety.

Would you classify me as a 'Slavoman' based on the previous post I have made (which I have reposted below):

I agree with his suggestion of having our schools teach the old language. Although I prefer the use of Old Macedonian (because that is exactly what it is) and that is how I would expect it to be taught in schools, contextual references to the language of that period as Slavonic and/or Church Slavonic cannot be excluded because it would be historically incorrect. That is why they are acceptable alternatives. Our people called it Slavonic during an extended period of time and that is how it came to be known as a liturgical language in the Christian world. The very name 'Slavonic' is evidence of the fact that it represents a pan-linguistic identity and not an ethnic one, even though the Slavonic language of Cyril and Methodius was Old Macedonian . Our enemies have made some us think that the word itself is completely negative because they use it in an inappropriate manner, and those who are ignorant among us contribute to this misinformation by rejecting anything associated with it. Both the terms 'Macedonian' and 'Slavonic' can exist in our historical perspectives if there is logical interpretation and relevant context applied, with neither one being suggestive against the other.

Do you deny any of the above?

Lastly, I am not saying Tentov or Iljov are right in everything they say or do and I don't go around using their contested discoveries as arguments in the fight for our Macedonian Cause but I don't see them as enemies, as some here appear to turn them into.

They are misleading Macedonians, and ignorance can be discounted as a factor because they have had ample time to do adequate research on the demotic text. If they are misleading Macedonians, then they are working (willingly or not) contrary to the Macedonian Cause.

[lavce pelagonski]

Staro Makedonski/Staro Crkovno jazik then yes.

[RitaC]

Rita, can you define what you mean by "antiquisation" and what exactly you object to?

I mean the fascination with anything ancient.

The ancients are irrelevant, the fascination is regressive and counter producive.

Macedonia's biggest and costliest tactical error has been pursuing the antiquisation policy.

Had our argument centered exclusively on our human rights, I am 99% sure that by now we would have won the name game. Instead, we've joined the Grks in their column mania - and in many cases, we might have even out done them.

Then there is the impact on our already deplorable architecture. The 8 star shields in Bitola, the tragic bust of Alexander at the airport....and now crowned by the the abominable fountain. Kitsch, incongruous and embarrassing.

Not to mention the cringe-worthy Macedonian falanx greeting the Hunza king at the airport, which I see as an attempt to impose a dead culture on a supposed modern state.

I recall the early years of the maknews forum, how we laughed at Grk plans to carve Alexander's head into a mountain.

[George S.]

The greeks are just following the americans of wanting to carve heads on mountains.I doubt if they have the money to do it.As far as looking in the past we have to so that we can gain a connection with the past.The greeks are allways trying to live in the past & forge their way with their bs propaganda that the macedonians spoke nothing but greek but they forgot to mention that there was ancient macedonian.