Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    Originally posted by TheNikoWhiteIch View Post
    Wrong for so many reasons. Ok, first of all, why should I study Greek? That is a completely different language.
    Well, I don't know. Because, if one speaks Greek, he easily understands that Zakeltides is the plural of zakeltis or that zakeltis is a feminine noun.

    Originally posted by TheNikoWhiteIch View Post
    Second of all, check this for those 11 "Greek" words:
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...sults?q=Maced.. Third of all, the word "zakeltis (ζακελτίς)" doesn't exist in any language or dialect. You're thinking of the Boeotian "zekeltides (ζεκελτίδες)" which Amerias confirms means "turnips" while he confirms that the Macedonian word "zakeltides (ζακελτίδες)" means "gourds." Then the Phrygians had "zelkia (ζέλκια)" or "zelkeia (ζέλκεια)" which is translated as follows: "ζέλκεια: λάχανα παρὰ Φρυξὶ τὰ παρ᾽ ἡμῖν λεγόμενα Φρύγια." It means "cabbage."
    Originally posted by TheNikoWhiteIch View Post
    Next point: I mean "(Afao) Άφάο" which is listed as a Macedonian word here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...try%3Da(fa%2Fw.
    Well, Surprise, surprise, check again. The abbreviation Maced. in Liddell does not mean it is a Macedonian word. You can delete all the words you gathered this way.

    Macarius Paroemiographus [Macar.] xv A.D. Ed. E. L. von Leutsch & F. G. Schneidewin, Paroemiographi ii p. 135.
    Macedonius Epigrammaticus [Maced.] i A.D. (?) v. Anthologia Graeca.
    Macedonius Lyricus [Maced.] Paean, ed. J. U. Powell, Coll. Alex. p. 138. [Pae.]
    Macedonius Thessalonicensis Epigrammaticus [Maced.] vi A.D. v. Anthologia Graeca.
    Macho Comicus iii B.C. Ed. T. Kock, CAF iii p. 324. Cetera fragmenta apud Athenaeum.
    Macrobius Grammaticus [Macr.] iv/v A.D. Exc. = Excerpta Grammatica, ed. H. Keil, Gramm. Lat. v p. 595. Sat. = Saturnalia, ed. F. Eyssenhardt2, Leipzig (T.) 1893.
    Maecius Epigrammaticus [Maec.] i A.D. (?) v. Anthologia Graeca.


    Αφάω is an (earlier?) or more rare synonym of άπτω (apto) which is related to the noun αφή (aphae). It basically means “to touch” but it has many metaphorical meanings, e.g. relate to etc.


    Originally posted by TheNikoWhiteIch View Post
    And lastly, where did you get "edo (έδω)" from? Is it listed anywhere, or did you reconstruct a verb like I was doing?

    Edo (to eat) is a very common verb related to many food-related words, e.g. edesma, edodimos etc.
    Last edited by Amphipolis; 06-19-2015, 07:27 PM.

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  • TheNikoWhiteIch
    replied
    Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
    If you're so interested, why don't you simply study Greek?



    First things first. These are 11 (Greek?) words. Where is the source that any of it is Macedonian?

    Some are very common Greek words, some are very specific, yet simple variations of common words, some are rare, some may be misspelled or have a wrong translation in English (I'm not sure, I would have to check first).

    For instance:

    zakeltis (ζακελτίς) is given by Hesychius as a Boiotian word, not a Macedonian one.

    The verb to eat is edo (έδω), where edeatros comes from.

    Aφάω: where did you see that? do you mean άπτω or αμφαφάω?

    Wrong for so many reasons. Ok, first of all, why should I study Greek? That is a completely different language. Second of all, check this for those 11 "Greek" words:
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...sults?q=Maced.. Third of all, the word "zakeltis (ζακελτίς)" doesn't exist in any language or dialect. You're thinking of the Boeotian "zekeltides (ζεκελτίδες)" which Amerias confirms means "turnips" while he confirms that the Macedonian word "zakeltides (ζακελτίδες)" means "gourds." Then the Phrygians had "zelkia (ζέλκια)" or "zelkeia (ζέλκεια)" which is translated as follows: "ζέλκεια: λάχανα παρὰ Φρυξὶ τὰ παρ᾽ ἡμῖν λεγόμενα Φρύγια." It means "cabbage." Next point: I mean "(Afao) Άφάο" which is listed as a Macedonian word here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...try%3Da(fa%2Fw. And lastly, where did you get "edo (έδω)" from? Is it listed anywhere, or did you reconstruct a verb like I was doing?

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  • Amphipolis
    replied
    If you're so interested, why don't you simply study Greek?

    Originally posted by TheNikoWhiteIch View Post
    ... and Phrygian word for cabbage was "Ζέλκια (Zelkia)" while ancient Macedonian had "Ζακελτίδες (Zakeltides)" for "gourd, pumpkin." For the purpose of this sentence we'll assume that "Ptolemy's" would have been "Πτολεμαιου (Ptolemaiou)." As for "eats," ancient Macedonian had "Εδέατρος (Edeatros)" which roughly meant "taster." We have a handful of verbs that are said to be ancient Macedonian; these are:

    Έκσαλάσσω (Eksalasso) -- to shake violently
    Κατωχριάω (Katochriao) -- to become pale
    Αολλίζω (Aollizo) -- to gather together
    Άφάω (Afao) -- to praise
    Άνακροταλίζω (Anakrotalizo) -- to strike together
    Βηνῶσα or Βηνῶσα (Vinosa) -- to baa like sheep
    Βάζω or Βάζω (Bázo̱) -- to speak or say

    Additionally, there is "Βηματίζειν (Bimatizein)" but I haven't seen an English translation for it. I know that Greek has "Βηματίζω (Vematizu)" for "to pace, to stride," but I think that "Βηματίζειν (Bimatizein)" was different. I think that the book "Frid. Guil. Sturzii de dialecto Macedonica et Alexandrina liber" translates "Βηματίζειν (Bimatizein)" as "sound" or "word," but Latin's not my strong point.
    First things first. These are 11 (Greek?) words. Where is the source that any of it is Macedonian?

    Some are very common Greek words, some are very specific, yet simple variations of common words, some are rare, some may be misspelled or have a wrong translation in English (I'm not sure, I would have to check first).

    For instance:

    zakeltis (ζακελτίς) is given by Hesychius as a Boiotian word, not a Macedonian one.

    The verb to eat is edo (έδω), where edeatros comes from.

    Aφάω: where did you see that? do you mean άπτω or αμφαφάω?

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  • TheNikoWhiteIch
    replied
    Reconstructed ancient Macedonian and Illyrian sentences.

    To construct a sentence using ancient Macedonian vocabulary may be even more challenging, but it is worth looking into. The sentence that I will attempt to construct is the following:

    Ptolemy's daughter eats a gourd.

    We know that the ancient Macedonian word for daughter was "Ακρέα (Akrea)," and Phrygian word for cabbage was "Ζέλκια (Zelkia)" while ancient Macedonian had "Ζακελτίδες (Zakeltides)" for "gourd, pumpkin." For the purpose of this sentence we'll assume that "Ptolemy's" would have been "Πτολεμαιου (Ptolemaiou)." As for "eats," ancient Macedonian had "Εδέατρος (Edeatros)" which roughly meant "taster." We have a handful of verbs that are said to be ancient Macedonian; these are:

    Έκσαλάσσω (Eksalasso) -- to shake violently
    Κατωχριάω (Katochriao) -- to become pale
    Αολλίζω (Aollizo) -- to gather together
    Άφάω (Afao) -- to praise
    Άνακροταλίζω (Anakrotalizo) -- to strike together
    Βηνῶσα or Βηνῶσα (Vinosa) -- to baa like sheep
    Βάζω or Βάζω (Bázo̱) -- to speak or say

    Additionally, there is "Βηματίζειν (Bimatizein)" but I haven't seen an English translation for it. I know that Greek has "Βηματίζω (Vematizu)" for "to pace, to stride," but I think that "Βηματίζειν (Bimatizein)" was different. I think that the book "Frid. Guil. Sturzii de dialecto Macedonica et Alexandrina liber" translates "Βηματίζειν (Bimatizein)" as "sound" or "word," but Latin's not my strong point.

    Back to the point. We have seen from those verbs that are said to be ancient Macedonian, how verbs likely sounded in ancient Macedonian. So to construct the verb "to taste, to eat" we can utilize the word "Εδέατρος (Edeatros)" (taster) and guess at how we can form a verb out of it. The following are the possibilities for verbs:

    Εδέασσω (Edeassou)
    Εδέαω (Edeau)
    Εδέαλίζω (Edealizu)
    Εδέαίζω (Edeaizu)
    Εδέανῶσα (Edeanusa)
    Εδέαῶσα (Edeausa)
    Εδέαζω (Edeazu)
    Εδέαίζειν (Edeaizein)

    Therefore, these are the possible sentences:
    Ακρέα Πτολεμαιου Εδέασσω ζακελτίδες.
    Ακρέα Πτολεμαιου Εδέαω ζακελτίδες.
    Ακρέα Πτολεμαιου Εδέαλίζω ζακελτίδες.
    Ακρέα Πτολεμαιου Εδέαίζω ζακελτίδες.
    Ακρέα Πτολεμαιου Εδέανῶσα ζακελτίδες.
    Ακρέα Πτολεμαιου Εδέαῶσα ζακελτίδες.
    Ακρέα Πτολεμαιου Εδέαίζειν ζακελτίδες.
    Ακρέα Πτολεμαιου Εδέαζω ζακελτίδες.

    Slavic for comparison:
    Ќерка Птоломејова јади/јаде зелка.

    More accurately since ζακελτίδες means gourd:
    Ќерка Птоломејова јади/јаде тиква.

    Greek for comparison: (taken from Google Translate!)
    Η κόρη του Πτολεμαίου τρώει λάχανο.

    Or using the word "gourd" we have:
    Η κόρη του Πτολεμαίου τρώει κολοκύθες.

    English sentence:
    Be careful brother, there is a wolf between the trees.

    Words that aren't actually Illyrian are italicized. Words that sound alike are bold.

    Illyrian sentence:
    Пази бра, мету дербанои има улк!

    Slavic Sentence:
    Пази брат, меѓу дрвата има волк.

    Greek sentence: (taken from Google Translate!)
    Να είστε προσεκτικοί αδελφός, υπάρχει ένας λύκος μεταξύ στα δέντρα.

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  • TheNikoWhiteIch
    replied
    Additionally, Georgiev, in his map of ancient languages, adds the following as having existed in the region of Macedonia:

    Proto-Greek (just in Pieria and Perrhaebia)
    Proto-Macedonian (Mostly in Pelagonia)
    Proto-Phrygian (Mostly in Paeonia)
    Daco-Thracian (Between the Vardar and Struma Rivers, down to Mygdonia)
    Thracian (east of the Struma River)

    What do you guys make of this?


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  • TheNikoWhiteIch
    replied
    I acknowledge that a seemingly better place for the following post is in the thread regarding Slavic words being found in Homeric Greek, but I thought it might be an interesting addition.

    Homeric Slavic Definition
    Kίον Kinisa To set (in place, in motion, etc.)

    Kοτύλη Kotle Cup/Cauldron

    Στείνω Stenka Groan/Moan/Yell/Audible Noise

    Όδίτης Odi (go) Journey, Voyage

    Έσθίω Jestivo Eat/Taste (still in Greek)

    Βίῃ Ubie Beat by force

    Δολιχός Dolgo Long/Lengthy

    Oἶνος Vino Wine

    Δαϝήρ Dever Brother in Law

    Σϝεκυρός Svekor Father in Law

    Σϝεκυρή Svekrva Mother in Law

    Tείνω Tegni Stretch (still in Greek)

    Aττα Ata Father

    Mαῖα Majka Mother/Older woman

    Δόμονδε Dom+onde House (to the,)

    Aμαλός Malo Young/Youth

    Σύν So With

    Οδε Ovde Here

    Λέγω Ley go Lay down/set down

    Έἷσε Peysi Sing

    Έρυκω V'raka In-hand/Hold

    Aρείων Aren Good/Better

    Πεζός Peshki On foot (in Greek)

    Στείνω Stegni To confine/to press down

    Tριβω Iztrigo Rub

    Bάδην Vodi Advance/lead

    Tί/Tii Oti Why/How

    Mοῖρα Moia Mine (One's own)

    It should be noted that some of these are still found in Greek, but it is really interesting that these words resemble Slavic words. I wonder if there is a way to tie this into a hypothetical Proto-Balto-Slavic tongue?

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  • Chakalarov
    replied
    I was looking at other parts of the inscription. I noticed that on the second, shortest, inscription, the letters ΑΒΑΗΓΝ are found. I could be way off here, but could this be related to anc. Macedonian ΑΒΑΓΝΑ (rose)?

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  • Chakalarov
    replied
    Originally posted by George S. View Post
    chak on the mention of essen -autumn,do you know the old time Macedonian calendar.pre Julian the month named Listopad (falling leaves).
    Yes, I have read that on a Wikipedia article. I was hoping if other members could offer their interpretation/translations about the first part of the inscription.

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  • George S.
    replied
    chak on the mention of essen -autumn,do you know the old time Macedonian calendar.pre Julian the month named Listopad (falling leaves).

    Leave a comment:


  • Chakalarov
    replied
    The posts devoted to the Kjolmen inscription have been really fascinating, and I was hoping we could bring it up again. I have noticed that depending on the interpretation of certain letters, there are some 5 very different transliterations circulating the web. I found a relatively large drawing of the inscription and mapped out what I could read based on the assumption that >=Y and II=N

    My reading from the section in particular is as follows:

    ΝΥΑΣΝΛΕΤΕΔΝΥΕΔΝΕΝΙΔΑΚΑΤ, broken up in my opinion as:

    ΝΥ ΑΣΝ ΛΕΤΕ ΔΝΥ ΕΔΝΕΝΙΔΑΚΑΤ.

    I believe this because we can identify the words for year, day, and the number eleven.

    At one point I began to think that the spacing is off. I experimented and thought it could also be Ν ΥΑΣΝ(at autumn, during autumn) related to Old Macedonian ЄCЄН. I couldn't find a dictionary translation of the word for autumn, but I compared a two bible verses (one in English, one in OCS) to find the word for autumn. The word in passage in Jude 1:12 is ЄCЄHHA, in its case form, so I assume autumn would be something close to ЄCЄН. While the likelihood of this is low considering ΑΣΝ is clearly defined, it is nonetheless something to think about in my opinion.

    In some translations, ΔΑΚΑΤ is shown to be a pαrt of ΔΑΚΑΤΡΟΣ, but the assumption that the symbol representing an "r" is questionable. I have attached the picture in the link with the inscription in question circled. The "r" letter is the fourth letter from the left.

    I hope we can discuss a possible translation for the sentence if we are to accept this form. I assume
    ΑΣΝ=I, me
    ΛΕΤΕ=year, this year
    ΔΝΥ=day
    ΕΔΝΕΝΙΔΑΚΑΤ= eleven

    Do we have any theories as to what ΝΥ (if we accept that >=Y and II=N) could mean?

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    Last edited by Chakalarov; 06-26-2014, 09:35 PM.

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  • Nexus
    replied


    And the question is :" Theses thracians and baltic place name are of thracian or baltic origins, since the thracians in Antiquity reached the Baltic sea according to this map"

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  • Nexus
    replied
    By the way what are the differences between the baltic and slavic languages? Did they form a unique language in the past and they divide themselves, or they are two distincts groups? I saw theories about the slavic language originated from the baltic etc... Anyone who have knowledge in linguistic can inform me please?

    From Mario Alinei's PCP :

    Trubacev also discusses at length the various theories on the Balto-Slavic relationship
    and maintains – in my opinion quite rightly – that any serious theory on Slavic
    ethnogenesis must first address the problem of the relationhip between Baltic and Slavic
    (Trubacev 1985, 210). He does not support the newest of such theories, namely the one
    that considers Baltic as a the earliest stage of Slavic but, on the basis of the evident
    discontinuity between the two groups, and of their remarkable differences in lexicon,
    phonetics and morphology, he prefers the oldest theory of an earlier unity of the
    languages, with successive, secondary relationships and contacts of a different type
    (idem, 212).

    Very important, however, and in my opinion pointing rather to the newest theory
    of Slavic derivation from Baltic than to oldest theory of an ancient unity, are Trubacev’s
    remarks on the affinities, sometime extraordinary, between Baltic and Thracian place
    names: e.g. the Thr. river name Kérs􀆝s ~ OPruss. Kerse; Thr. town name Edessa ~ Balt.
    Vedosa, river of the high Dneper; Thr. Zaldapa ~ Lith. Želtup􀆡 etc. (idem, 215, with
    more examples)
    . Irrespective of the chronology, this similarity seems to enhance the
    thesis of a derivation of Slavic from Baltic and would permit a new approach and a new
    solution of the Thracian problem (s. further). From a geolinguistic point of view, in any
    case, it would be perfectly plausible that the Thracian area in the South and the Baltic
    area in the North would have formed the periphery of the Slavic area (where the archaic
    phase, as usual, would have been preserved), whereas the center of the area (again, as
    usual in geolinguistics) would have been the most innovative, i.e. the most influenced
    by the various adstrata and superstrata.
    Last edited by Nexus; 02-04-2013, 05:53 PM.

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  • momce
    replied
    People might be interested in this by Coon, in "The Races of Europe",:



    "Slavs" may indeed go back to paleo-Europe.

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  • momce
    replied
    This is an excellent thread I spent some time reading it. Very good, especially Alinei work which I knew nothing about till now. Anyone have any ideas on why only Latin and Greek seemed to be the surviving languages in those periods? And how much we dont really know about Europes real origins...
    Last edited by momce; 01-11-2013, 10:00 PM.

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    replied
    Those who have been reading this thread will have noticed the numerous lexical correspondences that our language has with Thracian. With this post, I will show some examples of Thracian inflections which are akin to modern Macedonian (and other Slavic languages).

    In Thracian, a common genitive/possessive case ending for nouns was -ou, which is equivalent to mod. Macedonian -ov (and Greek -ou). Hence, some patronymics in Thracian used as surnames were Αυλουζενις Διζου (Dizov), Αυλουκενθος Ταρσου (Tarsov) and Αυλουτραλις Σιγου (Sigov), etc. Compare these to mod. Macedonian surnames like Petrov and Pavlov, which would often be rendered as Πέτρου and Παύλου when written with Greek letters. Further to the above, the initial component of Αυλου (Аvlov) is repeated for each of the first names listed. These are examples of a Thracian possessive adjective, similar to mod. Macedonian when used for words like Petrovgrad, Todorovden, etc. Although not personal names, the mod. Macedonian words are still nouns. To see an ever closer parallel, compare the Thracian first name Αυλουκενθος (Avlovkenthos) with the kinship term Bratovched (> Bratuched), where the second components are also cognates; Thracian kenthos/kenda is equivalent to mod. Macedonian ched/chend < kend.

    There was also another genitive/possessive case for Thracian nouns which was -in(os), just like in mod. Macedonian -in. Thus, the famous Thracian tribe known as the Bessi had a town known as Βεσσοπαρα (Bessopara), and a person from that town was known as a Βεσσοπαρηνος (Bessoparin-os). Compare that to Suho > Suhin, Grad > Gragjanin, Dom > Domakjin, etc, or to personal names like Dojcin and surnames like Radin. Just like with the previous example -ov, the -in can also form possessive adjectives in mod. Macedonian and other Slavic languages, so instead of the masc. Markova kniga (Mark's book) there is Anina kniga (Ana's book). This has an equivalent in Illyrian, for which there are coins from the city of Skodra with the inscription Skodrina, which is an adjective form that would mean Skodra's (coin). Other similar Illyrian examples may be Nareste > Narestini, Pituntium > Pituntini, Onuem > Onastini, Palaeste > Palaestini, etc.

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